Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[troll hunter]

The study just goes to show how poor scientists MDs are. No idea about statistical analysis...

The guy who did the study sells CO rebreathers, the purpose of the study was probably just to get the conclusion he wanted. Journalists are the bad ones who clickbait and make misleading comments.

If both are uninjured I don’t see Vingegaard beating Pogacar. I still see Vingo as too one dimensional. The hope is he can improve to be better than he was in 2023. He can at least put Pogacar under pressure.

Winning a GT is all about mountain stages, ITT and mental strength. Vingegaard excels in all of these. As Visma is a better organised team than UAE, and Vingegaard is a more disciplined rider than Pog. I'd give the Dane a better chance of winning TdF

 

[Cookster15]

Winning a GT is all about mountain stages, ITT and mental strength. Vingegaard excels in all of these. As Visma is a better organised team than UAE, and Vingegaard is a more disciplined rider than Pog. I'd give the Dane a better chance of winning TdF

I give Pog a better chance because when uninjured Pogacar is simply better than Vingegaard in mountain stages, ITT and even possible gravel sectors. And more disciplined can also be more boring (one dimensional).

 

[troll hunter]

I give Pog a better chance because when uninjured Pogacar is simply better than Vingegaard in mountain stages, ITT and even possible gravel sectors. And more disciplined can also be more boring (one dimensional).

You can call it boring or robotic, but discipline is a positive trait in a three-week race. Two years after the Granon stage, I think Pog has again reached the point where he thinks he's unbeatable no matter what he does. As a result, he almost lost what should have been an easy WC title. He should be more humble, do team tactics and follow them on the stage, instead of racing by feeling.

 

[Nick2413]

The one way I find CO a wholly unsatisfying explanation is it should simply trigger the bio passport.

But I guess we have to believe it's just CO + expensive lawyers now

My question at this point is do lawyers function as that big of a deterrent to even stop all cases from being initiated? An indictment alone would be enough to make some noise.

 

[E_F_]

he almost lost what should have been an easy WC title

Did he though? Really? He was fresh as a daisy afterwards. Running around...

 

[Izzyeviel]

'I never knew carbon Monoxide could be misused' - dude who inhales carbon monoxide for breakfast.

You never know if its just stupidity or complete detachment from reality which causes such statements. Do they have any idea how dumb some of them sound?

 

[snipeheem]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862206568680346096

.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862219257930490071

View: https://x.com/mou55981652/status/1862219257930490071

View: https://x.com/mou55981652/status/1862206568680346096

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862206568680346096

.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1862219257930490071

View: https://x.com/mou55981652/status/1862219257930490071

View: https://x.com/mou55981652/status/1862206568680346096

UAE couldn't afford it, because they have a small budget.

 

[E_F_]

I thought the Pogster lost because of his fraud coach..?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Refrained from talking about it much since as the whole thing got old after about 20 minutes back in March. Banging on about Pogacar too much wasn't doing any real harm other than cluttering the forum a bit. but as he's talking about doping whilst trying to insinuate that he's an insider, stuff that actually can have a malign influence, this really does need reiterating;

Mou isn't an insider, he has access to no more or less information than anyone on this forum.

 

[Froome]

Mou isn't an insider, he has access to no more or less information than anyone on this forum.

Just a kid with to much time free, to spend all of the day on twitter.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Just a kid with to much time free, to spend all of the day on twitter.

Almost, but he's in his late 30s unfortunately social media has a lot to answer for.

 

[troll hunter]

UAE couldn't afford it, because they have a small budget.

Certainly there is a reason why the UAE only uses this cheaper CO-rebreather - https://bloodtec.de/product-method/

 

[ElDesordenado]

A one hour+ interview with Vingegaard and his wife was published the other day by the Danish Broadcasting Cooperation. Vingegaard said that after his crash in the Spring, he didn't think he'd even be able to race the Tour de France. But after what he estimated to be between a month and a half and two months' proper training in May and June, he had started producing some really promising results.

"I couldn’t hit the same watts that I could prior to the crash, but I was lighter because I had lost quite a lot of muscle mass. So when we reached the starting line of the TdF, I had reached a really good level. Despite the crash, I was stronger than I was the previous year, so we thought I could win the race."

He said he felt gradually stronger throughout the race, which culminated with his victory on stage 11 and his performance on Plateau de Beille, what he refers to as his best climbing performance ever.

"At that point, I really thought I could win the Tour. But with Pogacar having improved so much, even if I hadn’t crashed in the Spring, it might still have been difficult to win."

He jokingly mentioned that according to media reports, he's supposed to ride the Giro the next year. He then confirmed that riding the Tour will be his number one priority.

"Next year, I definitely think I can be competitive in the Tour de France - also to a larger extent than this year."

Link to the full interview in Danish here

 

[Peyroteo94]

A one hour+ interview with Vingegaard and his wife was published the other day by the Danish Broadcasting Cooperation. Vingegaard said that after his crash in the Spring, he didn't think he'd even be able to race the Tour de France. But after what he estimated to be between a month and a half and two months' proper training in May and June, he had started producing some really promising results.

"I couldn’t hit the same watts that I could prior to the crash, but I was lighter because I had lost quite a lot of muscle mass. So when we reached the starting line of the TdF, I had reached a really good level. Despite the crash, I was stronger than I was the previous year, so we thought I could win the race."

He said he felt gradually stronger throughout the race, which culminated with his victory on stage 11 and his performance on Plateau de Beille, what he refers to as his best climbing performance ever.

"At that point, I really thought I could win the Tour. But with Pogacar having improved so much, even if I hadn’t crashed in the Spring, it might still have been difficult to win."

He jokingly mentioned that according to media reports, he's supposed to ride the Giro the next year. He then confirmed that riding the Tour will be his number one priority.

"Next year, I definitely think I can be competitive in the Tour de France - also to a larger extent than this year."

Link to the full interview in Danish here

A lot of TUE were taken

 

[yaco]

A one hour+ interview with Vingegaard and his wife was published the other day by the Danish Broadcasting Cooperation. Vingegaard said that after his crash in the Spring, he didn't think he'd even be able to race the Tour de France. But after what he estimated to be between a month and a half and two months' proper training in May and June, he had started producing some really promising results.

"I couldn’t hit the same watts that I could prior to the crash, but I was lighter because I had lost quite a lot of muscle mass. So when we reached the starting line of the TdF, I had reached a really good level. Despite the crash, I was stronger than I was the previous year, so we thought I could win the race."

He said he felt gradually stronger throughout the race, which culminated with his victory on stage 11 and his performance on Plateau de Beille, what he refers to as his best climbing performance ever.

"At that point, I really thought I could win the Tour. But with Pogacar having improved so much, even if I hadn’t crashed in the Spring, it might still have been difficult to win."

He jokingly mentioned that according to media reports, he's supposed to ride the Giro the next year. He then confirmed that riding the Tour will be his number one priority.

"Next year, I definitely think I can be competitive in the Tour de France - also to a larger extent than this year."

Link to the full interview in Danish here

Why is this post in this part of the forum? It belongs in the normal part of the forum.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Why is this post in this part of the forum? It belongs in the normal part of the forum.

Well, I posted it because I think it adds some context to and information to the suspicions around Vingegaard's performances (which is what this part of the forum is intended for).

It confirms that according to Vingegaard himself, he was at his highest level ever in this year's TdF despite what he himself perceived as a life-threatening crash in the Spring. It also confirms that after one and a half-two months of training, he was able to reach a level that he had never had before in the TdF.

And, finally, despite this leap in performance, he seems confident that it is possible to jump to another level for the '25 TdF. I think that's interesting from a doping suspicion perspective because seemingly, we're not talking small incremental gains here, we're talking big jumps - like the one Pog did from '23 to '24, which Vingegaard also acknowledges in the interview ("I was at my best level ever, but even if I hadn't had the crash, it might have been difficult to win because of the huge improvement Pogacar had made").

In writing this, I don't mean to conclude that Vingegaard and Pogacar are doping, but I do think it's interesting information given the history of the sport - and thus relevant to this section of the forum.

 

[awavey]

And, finally, despite this leap in performance, he seems confident that it is possible to jump to another level for the '25 TdF. I think that's interesting from a doping suspicion perspective because seemingly, we're not talking small incremental gains here, we're talking big jumps - like the one Pog did from '23 to '24, which Vingegaard also acknowledges in the interview ("I was at my best level ever, but even if I hadn't had the crash, it might have been difficult to win because of the huge improvement Pogacar had made").

and also he thinks losing muscle mass, helped him ride quicker as he was lighter

 

[Unchained]

'I never knew carbon Monoxide could be misused' - dude who inhales carbon monoxide for breakfast.

You never know if its just stupidity or complete detachment from reality which causes such statements. Do they have any idea how dumb some of them sound?

The Science and Controversy of Carbon Monoxide Rebreathing

Discover how carbon monoxide rebreathing is used to measure hemoglobin mass, its benefits for performance, and ethical concerns in endurance sports.

www.trainingpeaks.com

 

[YellowSocks]

Why is this post in this part of the forum? It belongs in the normal part of the forum.

I think Vingegaard saying pretty much the same thing as Romain Bardet (i.e. I'm doing my best numbers and can't compete anymore) makes this post worth being here.
And anyway Vingegaard really deserves his place in this part of the forum.

 

[ElDesordenado]

and also he thinks losing muscle mass, helped him ride quicker as he was lighter

To be fair, he did say at another point in the interview regarding the loss of muscle mass something along the lines of "I don't think that was an advantage" - but at the same time, he pointed to the loss of muscle mass as (part of?) the reason for why he was able to hit w/kg numbers superior to those of 2023.

He said that prior to crashing, he was at his best level ever. Then, prior to the start of the 2024 TdF, while obviously compromised in terms of training, he had gained enough fitness to be in better shape than in 2023.

In another recent interview with Danish media, he said that his level in the 2024 TdF was greatly superior to that of 2022 ("almost can't be compared"). So, in other words, he's confirming what I guess everyone was already aware: that we've witnessed some great leaps in performances, in Vingegaard's case even despite a serious crash and far from perfect race preparation (his own assessment).

 

[Froome]

To be fair, he did say in the interview regarding the loss of muscle mass something along the lines of "I don't think that was an advantage" - but at the same time, he pointed to the loss of muscle mass as (part of) an explanation for why he was able to hit w/kg numbers superior to those of 2023.

He said that prior to crashing, he was at his best level ever. Then, prior to the start of the 2024 TdF, while obviously compromised in terms of training, he had gained enough fitness to be in better shape than in 2023.

In another recent interview with Danish media, he said that his level in the 2024 TdF was greatly superior to that of 2022 ("almost can't be compared"). So, in other words, he's confirming what I guess everyone was already aware: that we've witnessed some great leaps in performances, in Vingegaard's case even despite a serious crash and far from perfect race preparation (his own assessment).

Vingegaard did probably one of his best performance ever on Plateau de Beille, but i still consider Combloux TT his best perfomance ever.

Nevertheless, if we consider his best perfomance ever on Plateau de beille, obviously he mean by his words, he could be even in better shape with perfect preparation than what he was in some stages like plateau de beille stage. He said in April before the crash, he was already in the best shape of his life.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Vingegaard did probably one of his best performance ever on Plateau de Beille, but i still consider Combloux TT his best perfomance ever.

Nevertheless, if we consider his best perfomance ever on Plateau de beille, obviously he mean by his words, he could be even in better shape with perfect preparation than what he was in some stages like plateau de beille stage. He said in April before the crash, he was already in the best shape of his life.

Right. But he said in this interview that even if he hadn't crashed, it might have been difficult to win because of the way in which Pogacar had improved.

So sounds like he needs to move a step beyond where he would have been this year without the crash.

 

[Andre]

and also he thinks losing muscle mass, helped him ride quicker as he was lighter

...he had muscles?

 

[awavey]

To be fair, he did say at another point in the interview regarding the loss of muscle mass something along the lines of "I don't think that was an advantage" - but at the same time, he pointed to the loss of muscle mass as (part of?) the reason for why he was able to hit w/kg numbers superior to those of 2023.

He said that prior to crashing, he was at his best level ever. Then, prior to the start of the 2024 TdF, while obviously compromised in terms of training, he had gained enough fitness to be in better shape than in 2023.

In another recent interview with Danish media, he said that his level in the 2024 TdF was greatly superior to that of 2022 ("almost can't be compared"). So, in other words, he's confirming what I guess everyone was already aware: that we've witnessed some great leaps in performances, in Vingegaard's case even despite a serious crash and far from perfect race preparation (his own assessment).

right but we're agreed losing muscle weight, is not an effective way to boost your performance numbers right ? I mean no-ones saying hey guys did you know you could boost your power & win the TdF if you dont train and lose your muscles ? right thats just biological nonsense as far as Im concerned.

leaner muscles yes are more effective, thats always been the goal in pro cycling, be lean, but you get that by losing fat weight...the guy weighs like 60kg how much excess body fat weight does he even carry, let alone put on whilst injured. Which arguably he isnt even saying he did, he's saying he lost weight through muscle atrophy, which gave him better watts per kilo...somehow...because he trained his muscles to keep producing lets say the same numbers output to make it simple, but weighed less so was quicker, and also throughout the recovery, never regained that muscle mass to slow him down again, and actually improved more, the more he rode.

whilst the numbers are always a bit random about how much fitness you lose in only 2 weeks and whether pro athletes recover quicker because of the routine or literal muscle memory. any extended time off the bike absolutely crashes your power numbers, and it takes time to rebuild.

the only way time off the bike boosts your performance, is if you were overtraining to begin with and not allowing enough body recovery time for the efforts. but pro cyclists numbers are analysed to death by the teams, theres no way JV wouldnt have spotted that from his data.