Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Gratemans]

Yeah, Rogla was almost made a villain here while Vingo also wanted to win (surely being less vocal about it though). Either you criticize both or none. The team management allowed the attacks so it's their responsibility and they should be criticized. To me personally it's ok if all have freedom to attack (this is racing) but Rogla & Vingo disappearing ahead of Kuss in the fog of Angliru (and a guy from another team helping) gave the team a terrible image (to some extent it's a team sport after all).

^this. I don't think any of the riders did anything wrong. Although they are disregarding the fact that at some point Vingegaard certainly was also thinking about taking the win.
In the end, none of the riders did anything wrong. It was team management that f-ed up in a bad way here.
If anything, this Vuelta was a perfect demonstration of the schizophrenic nature of the sport: both a team sport and an individual sport at the same time. Cycling is weird.

 

[Netserk]

No, the "plan" itself was misguided. Three riders on the same team attacking each other? That's like a...Movistar tactic.

Question: what would have been the effect on Visma if Vingegaard and Roglic had taken first and second on GC after relaying each other to drop Kuss on the Angliru? Roglic leaves anyway, and Kuss's agent starts dialing for dollars. No way Kuss works for Vingegaard ever again. Even Vingegaard and Roglic knew it was a bad idea.

I've said this before: the outcome wasn't great but it was the least bad result.

When Hinault took yellow in Pau in the 1986 Tour, should Lemond from then on have ridden for him and protected his lead?

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard wanting to keep it as it was was clearly indicated by attacking Tourmalet, attacking Bejes, and then joining Roglic on the Angliru instead of staying with Kuss.

But really the best part is framing it like backstabbing when Roglic was perfectly upfront about his intentions.

The Tourmalet attack didn't threaten red. After that, it was clear that they would sweep the podium. Bejes was stupid, but also a clusterfuck with no one chasing him. He was 1'44" behind Kuss at that point, so it should only threaten the stage win (and Rogla's GC, but not the red jersey of Kuss). On Angliru, he rode completely passively, not taking the front at all. He didn't drop back when Kuss blew up, but I'm unsure how active a decision that was (like, if we race for it I won't give up time to Rogla).

From his perspective, I don't think any of his actions contradicted him wanting Kuss to win the Vuelta.

 

[Froome]

The Tourmalet attack didn't threaten red. After that, it was clear that they would sweep the podium. Bejes was stupid, but also a clusterfuck with no one chasing him. He was 1'44" behind Kuss at that point, so it should only threaten the stage win (and Rogla's GC, but not the red jersey of Kuss). On Angliru, he rode completely passively, not taking the front at all. He didn't drop back when Kuss blew up, but I'm unsure how active a decision that was (like, if we race for it I won't give up time to Rogla).

From his perspective, I don't think any of his actions contradicted him wanting Kuss to win the Vuelta.

Vingegaard didn’t wanted to win the race, he just wanted to make sure he finished above Roglic and show that Roglic couldn't drop him, since he wanted to race for the win and not race for Kuss.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

The Tourmalet attack didn't threaten red.

Only because Vingegaard faded. The intention was clear, however. (Not saying that's a bad thing.)

 

[Netserk]

Only because Vingegaard faded. The intention was clear, however. (Not saying that's a bad thing.)

No, not even close. He wouldn't have ridden more than 1½ minutes faster by keeping his pace.

It was the team plan for the stage. It also shone through in interviews that Rogla and Kuss had different roles that day.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Some late thread posts are forgetting the role Landa had in the Angliru stage. It must be stated clearly. All that happened within Jumbo at the time was pure chaos and there is no way to sugarcoat it. Even UAE didn't have yet such internal struggles.

Roglic already said he was racing to win and Vingo followed for whatever reasons. When they dropped Kuss, Roglic already knew that his time at Jumbo was over but it would be difficult to even leapfrog Vingo even if the fisherman stayed with Kuss: Roglic had 1m33s to Kuss and 1m02s to Vingo at the Angliru stage. So it was him just stating: I'm here and I'm alive and I can win if only I was granted that status.

What Vingo and Vingo fans don't realise is that by following Roglic he was putting himself within the red jersey. There was no way to know how Kuss was being distanced so following Roglic had that risk. If not for Landa there wouldn't have been just 8s between them. Vingo would be wearing La Roja.

So that puts Vingo in a strange position:
1) either he actually wanted to win but accidentaly didn't (due to Landa);
2) or he actually didn't want to win but he could have won if not for Landa;

In the end, he doesn't come out as very clever or coherent. And certainly not as the "objectively" strongest rider in La Vuelta 2023. You see, being strong concerns both mental and performance and it just sounds as he was confused about what to do and what to will.

 

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard was also simply lucky that when he was weak Roglic wasnt racing against him

 

[Red Rick]

The Tourmalet attack didn't threaten red. After that, it was clear that they would sweep the podium. Bejes was stupid, but also a clusterfuck with no one chasing him. He was 1'44" behind Kuss at that point, so it should only threaten the stage win (and Rogla's GC, but not the red jersey of Kuss). On Angliru, he rode completely passively, not taking the front at all. He didn't drop back when Kuss blew up, but I'm unsure how active a decision that was (like, if we race for it I won't give up time to Rogla).

From his perspective, I don't think any of his actions contradicted him wanting Kuss to win the Vuelta.

Following Roglic on the Angliru contradicts it. The Jumbo 2024 pissing contest was way more important than precious Kuss winning Vuelta

 

[joseph89]

Some late thread posts are forgetting the role Landa had in the Angliru stage. It must be stated clearly. All that happened within Jumbo at the time was pure chaos and there is no way to sugarcoat it. Even UAE didn't have yet such internal struggles.

Roglic already said he was racing to win and Vingo followed for whatever reasons. When they dropped Kuss, Roglic already knew that his time at Jumbo was over but it would be difficult to even leapfrog Vingo even if the fisherman stayed with Kuss: Roglic had 1m33s to Kuss and 1m02s to Vingo at the Angliru stage. So it was him just stating: I'm here and I'm alive and I can win if only I was granted that status.

What Vingo and Vingo fans don't realise is that by following Roglic he was putting himself within the red jersey. There was no way to know how Kuss was being distanced so following Roglic had that risk. If not for Landa there wouldn't have been just 8s between them. Vingo would be wearing La Roja.

So that puts Vingo in a strange position:
1) either he actually wanted to win but accidentaly didn't (due to Landa);
2) or he actually didn't want to win but he could have won if not for Landa;

In the end, he doesn't come out as very clever or coherent. And certainly not as the "objectively" strongest rider in La Vuelta 2023. You see, being strong concerns both mental and performance and it just sounds as he was confused about what to do and what to will.

Not Roglic but Mikel Landa helped Sepp Kuss win the Vuelta

The Spanish rider of Bahrain Victorious caught up with Kuss and said: “If you want to win the Vuelta you have to follow me,” the 29-year-old rider of Visma | Lease a Bike in the documentary series. In the last kilometers of the grueling final climb, Landa functioned as a master servant for the American. Kuss came in 19 seconds behind his teammates, to his surprise this was enough to retain the red jersey. “I thought I had lost the jersey. Landa will never have to pay for his own beer again!”

Niet Roglic maar Mikel Landa hielp Sepp Kuss aan Vuelta-winst: "Hij hoeft nooit meer voor zijn bier te betalen!"

Mikel Landa zorgde er in de 17e etappe van de Vuelta a España 2023 voor dat Sepp Kuss zijn rode trui bleef behouden toen ploeggenoten Primoz Roglic en Jonas Vingegaard bij hem wegreden. Dat blijkt uit de nieuwe documentaireserie All In over het afgelopen seizoen van Jumbo-Visma. Hoe zat het ook...

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[scribers]

Some late thread posts are forgetting the role Landa had in the Angliru stage. It must be stated clearly. All that happened within Jumbo at the time was pure chaos and there is no way to sugarcoat it. Even UAE didn't have yet such internal struggles.

Roglic already said he was racing to win and Vingo followed for whatever reasons. When they dropped Kuss, Roglic already knew that his time at Jumbo was over but it would be difficult to even leapfrog Vingo even if the fisherman stayed with Kuss: Roglic had 1m33s to Kuss and 1m02s to Vingo at the Angliru stage. So it was him just stating: I'm here and I'm alive and I can win if only I was granted that status.

What Vingo and Vingo fans don't realise is that by following Roglic he was putting himself within the red jersey. There was no way to know how Kuss was being distanced so following Roglic had that risk. If not for Landa there wouldn't have been just 8s between them. Vingo would be wearing La Roja.

So that puts Vingo in a strange position:
1) either he actually wanted to win but accidentaly didn't (due to Landa);
2) or he actually didn't want to win but he could have won if not for Landa;

In the end, he doesn't come out as very clever or coherent. And certainly not as the "objectively" strongest rider in La Vuelta 2023. You see, being strong concerns both mental and performance and it just sounds as he was confused about what to do and what to will.

It’s all in the history books now; but Vingo was very much interested in winning. He leapfrogged roglic in the standings previously. Left Kuss to fend for himself to protect that advantage over roglic.

Thank god Kuss was just strong enough to prevail over his teammates weird ambitions.

 

[The Clogger]

Vingegaard wanting to keep it as it was was clearly indicated by attacking Tourmalet, attacking Bejes, and then joining Roglic on the Angliru instead of staying with Kuss.

But really the best part is framing it like backstabbing when Roglic was perfectly upfront about his intentions.

The team decided that the riders should race for victory. Jonas even said himself several times that if the other riders are racing for victory, he will also race for it. Although that's not what he preferred. It is in no way contradictory.

 

[Netserk]

When they dropped Kuss, Roglic already knew that his time at Jumbo was over

I'm not sure.

In the end, [Vingegaard] doesn't come out as very clever or coherent.

Indeed.

 

[Froome]

I'm not sure.

Roglic time at Jumbo was over since vingegaard won again the Tour.

He couldn't anymore be the leader in the Tour with Visma. Bora was the right choice, because they are a good team, good staff, who will give him the undisputed leadership.

 

[joseph89]

Roglic time at Jumbo was over since vingegaard won again the Tour.

He couldn't anymore be the leader in the Tour with Visma. Bora was the right choice, because they are a good team, good staff, who will give him the undisputed leadership.

And they gave him the bag.

 

[acm]

I'm not sure.

He has been thinking about leaving Jumbo for more than a year. After the Giro, when he was flying in trainings and was not allowed to go to the Tour, he made a final decision. And then Vuelta only confirmed that he made the right decision.

 

[Berniece]

Vingegaard was also simply lucky that when he was weak Roglic wasnt racing against him

That's not really true. In stage 6, the week that Vingegaard had the bowel issues, Roglic attacked. Vingegaard is just so good that even when sick he could close that gap. And then they decided to stay together.

This stage:

CQ Ranking - Vuelta a España, Stage 6 : La Vall d'Uixo - Observatorio Javalamba

CQ Ranking is the world's leading cycling ranking and extensive results database. Also known as Cycling Quotient.

cqranking.com

 

[The Clogger]

Vingegaard was also simply lucky that when he was weak Roglic wasnt racing against him

That's just wrong.

Roglic didn't have it on stage 3 when Evenepoel won the sprint.
Roglic attacked on stage 6, but Vingegaard caught him.
Roglic won stage 8 with a nice mountain sprint.
Roglic did his sprint on stage 9 when GC times were taken early.

Evenepoel was still the main (non Visma) rival at this point, so he had every reason to attack.

 

[Netserk]

He has been thinking about leaving Jumbo for more than a year. After the Giro, when he was flying in trainings and was not allowed to go to the Tour, he made a final decision. And then Vuelta only confirmed that he made the right decision.

Your interpretation, or something you can link to?

 

[Netserk]

That's not really true. In stage 6, the week that Vingegaard had the bowel issues, Roglic attacked. Vingegaard is just so good that even when sick he could close that gap. And then they decided to stay together.

This stage:

CQ Ranking - Vuelta a España, Stage 6 : La Vall d'Uixo - Observatorio Javalamba

CQ Ranking is the world's leading cycling ranking and extensive results database. Also known as Cycling Quotient.

cqranking.com

Rogla could have distanced Vingegaard there, but they rode together instead.

 

[Berniece]

Rogla could have distanced Vingegaard there, but they rode together instead.

We don't know that. Vingegaard closed the gap, so he was strong too. I'm not sure Roglic would've been able to ride away.

Although, but I'm not sure, maybe you remember this, didn't Roglic do most of the work? In that case I agree with you, but if they both rode as much in front, I don't see why Roglic would have been able to ride away.

 

[The Clogger]

We don't know that. Vingegaard closed the gap, so he was strong too. I'm not sure Roglic would've been able to ride away.

Although, but I'm not sure, maybe you remember this, didn't Roglic do most of the work? In that case I agree with you, but if they both rode as much in front, I don't see why Roglic would have been able to ride away.

Attila Valter dropped back from the break to pull. After he was done, Vingegaard increased the pace to drop Mas. There is nothing that indicates Roglic could have planted Vingegaard. He could might have taken a few seconds in his final sprint, but then we're being generous with our assessment.

 

[acm]

Your interpretation, or something you can link to?

A mix of everything. Interviews, podcasts and sources close to him. But most of them are in Slovenian. Here is the last one I can remember: https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.co...eft-jumbo-visma-even-with-vuelta-a-espana-win

 

[Netserk]

A mix of everything. Interviews, podcasts and sources close to him. But most of them are in Slovenian. Here is the last one I can remember: https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.co...eft-jumbo-visma-even-with-vuelta-a-espana-win

Thanks!

 

[kn0s]

It was clear that Jonas was split down the middle on Angliru and he chose to let the race play out without affecting it in any real way. If he had made a decision he could stay with Kuss or take pulls with Roglic, he clearly had more in the tank.

I think it matches up with the person Jonas seems to be. I would have liked him to make a decision, but we got nothing really from him that day.