Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Pozzovivo]

They can still pursue their goals without burning themselves out.

Jorgenson didn't race for two months between RVV (06.04) and Dauphine. This is not a good take. Visma is extremely conservative not letting their riders race too much and prepare optimally for the Tour.

If one team has a tour first approach like USPS or Team SKY today, it's VISMA-LAB.

Wellens rode races until may.
Narvaez until 20th of april.
Politt until 18th of may.
Sivakov Liege 20th of april
Soler 27th of april
All did Duaphine and Tour with Pogacar

Almeida rode until 4th of may, and then did the "suboptimal" tour de suisse instead of Dauphine.

Compare Visma to UAE and the result is clear - VISMA make tougher priorites than UAE to prepare optimally for the Tour.

 

[AmRacer]

The team performed extremely well. Better than UAE's. Only guy who did not deliver was Wout, but he's been a bit off all season. Compare that to UAE?

Wout delivered in Paris, but he had the Giro in his legs.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Wout delivered in Paris, but he had the Giro in his legs.

Fair enough but in the context of supporting Vingegaard which was what we discussed.

 

[AmRacer]

Fair enough but in the context of supporting Vingegaard which was what we discussed.

Wout didn't do much

 

[Pozzovivo]

Wout didn't do much

Which was exactly what I said in the original post. OnIy guy who did not deliver for Vingegaard in the tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Wout is to blame for Jonas not to win? If he by any chance isn't will he still pay the price for that next year? Or do you reckon he will maintain his freedom at the Tour?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Ofc Wout is to blame for Jonas being inferior in every aspect of cycling to Pogacar. Thats what Brian Holm told me.

 

[Red Rick]

Ofc Wout is to blame for Jonas being inferior in every aspect of cycling to Pogacar. Thats what Brian Holm told me.

He's not.

But you also can't act like he offered Vingegaard anything.

And before stage 21 his breakaway attempts looked quite suss a lot of the times, including once attacking when Vingegaard was an echelon behind.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Which was exactly what I said in the original post. OnIy guy who did not deliver for Vingegaard in the tour.

Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.

Visma set Vingegaard up for success on many stages and kept an intense pace that only tired himself out vs Pogacar. Every rider on the team could have been at their peak and Vingegaard still would have lost because Pogacar was that much better.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.

He will not find a team (except UAE) with as good mountain doms as Kuss, Jorgenson and Yates simply because none is as strong as Visma (not just in the mountains but in medium terrain as well i.e. Campenaerts). They threw a kitchen sink at Pogacar during Mt Ventoux and Loze stages but it wasn't enough cause Vingo simply couldn't drop the Slovenian. They really underperformed only on Hautacam stage (cooking themselves on the penultimate climb) but it didn't matter anyway cause Vingo (clearly on a worse day) had no answer to Pogi's thermonuclear attack at the base of the climb and was much worse than his main rival on that day.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Visma set Vingegaard up for success on many stages and kept an intense pace that only tired himself out vs Pogacar. Every rider on the team could have been at their peak and Vingegaard still would have lost because Pogacar was that much better.

No, they absolutely didn't. There was room for a lot more but his domestiques ran out of legs very soon, why? Because they were not at their peak. For Jonas to beat Pogacar he needs to have a superior team around him which he didn't. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much better Pogacar if you're Visma, your job is to give Jonas a full team of domestiques in top shape ready to fight for the Tour. It was a total embarrasment from Visma, top to bottom. Jonas deserves better from Visma, he has given them 2 Tours but they want to have their cake and eat it too by bringing big names that are fatigued from racing Giro and spring classics.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.

I really don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

And you have to compare it to UAE. Sivakov, Soler, Almeida DNF, Yates, even Politt?

Jorgenson had an excellent first 10 stages, did a strong job again on Col de la Madeleine, and overall delivered exactly what you’d expect from a key support rider.

Kuss was exceptional in the mountains on Soulor, Ventoux, and again on Madeleine he reduced the group to only GC riders, and on Madeleine it was down to just Pogacar and Vingegaard. Textbook super-domestique work!

Simon Yates was a bit up-and-down, but so was Adam Yates for UAE. that’s the nature of racing after Giro, and Simon still had strong days where he played his part and won a stage which is good for team moral!

Wout van Aert we all agree didn’t meet expectations, especially in the first week where he didn’t even help Jonas with positioning to instead go for "sprints". Shameful.

Beyond that, Campenaerts was excellent, Benoot performed in line with expectations, and Affini was strong on all the flat stages, arguably better than Politt! Overall, this was a very good collective effort from the team.

What Jonas needs is better w/kg than Pogacar.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I really don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

And you have to compare it to UAE. Sivakov, Soler, Almeida DNF, Yates, even Politt?

Jorgenson had an excellent first 10 stages, did a strong job again on Col de la Madeleine, and overall delivered exactly what you’d expect from a key support rider.

Kuss was exceptional in the mountains on Soulor, Ventoux, and again on Madeleine he reduced the group to only GC riders, and on Madeleine it was down to just Pogacar and Vingegaard. Textbook super-domestique work!

Simon Yates was a bit up-and-down, but so was Adam Yates for UAE — that’s the nature of racing after Giro, and Simon still had strong days where he played his part and won a stage which is good for team moral!

Wout van Aert we all agree didn’t meet expectations, especially in the first week where he didn’t even help Jonas with positioning to go for "sprints". Shameful.

Beyond that, Campenaerts was excellent, Benoot performed in line with expectations, and Affini was strong on all the flat stages, arguably better than Politt! Overall, this was a very good collective effort from the team.

What Jonas needs is better w/kg than Pogacar.

The argument is about Visma not giving Jonas a team in peak shape for the Tour. Comparing Visma domestique performances with UAE is irrelevant, couldn't care less how good/bad UAE domestiques perfomed, this is about Visma domestiques not being in peak shape for Jonas and it's the management's fault. You know that Tadej has a higher w/kg so everything hinges upon you having a stronger team like in previous Tours where Jonas won.

 

[SHAD0W93]

No, they absolutely didn't. There was room for a lot more but his domestiques ran out of legs very soon, why? Because they were not at their peak. For Jonas to beat Pogacar he needs to have a superior team around him which he didn't. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much better Pogacar if you're Visma, your job is to give Jonas a full team of domestiques in top shape ready to fight for the Tour. It was a total embarrasment from Visma, top to bottom. Jonas deserves better from Visma, he has given them 2 Tours but they want to have their cake and eat it too by bringing big names that are fatigued from racing Giro and spring classics.

Or maybe they were fatigued from attacking every single stage. Kuss and Simon were supposed to be there in the mountains, they were. Jorgenson was constantly there and attacking before he ran out of juice. Every rider bar WVA was there to set Vingegaard up for success. Their only hope was Vingegaard having the better recovery, he didn’t. This isn’t a video game, Visma ran themselves on empty against a stronger opponent.

 

[yaco]

The argument is about Visma not giving Jonas a team in peak shape for the Tour. Comparing Visma domestique performances with UAE is irrelevant, couldn't care less how good/bad UAE domestiques perfomed, this is about Visma domestiques not being in peak shape for Jonas and it's the management's fault. You know that Tadej has a higher w/kg so everything hinges upon you having a stronger team like in previous Tours where Jonas won.

Even if Visma's domestics were in better shape which is debateable it means that Pogarar wins by more minutes.

 

[James M]

Visma peaked in 22/23 that should be easy for everyone to see and admit, no? Now, most of their best riders are on the decline relative to others. Unlike UAE, whose riders are mostly younger/ improving and above all have a much larger pool to pick from.

That being said, Visma isnt the issue at all. Jonas wont find a better team for the Tour than Visma, even now (besides UAE). Relative to other teams, Visma is still really, really strong. And considering the discrepancy in the mountains compared to the rest after Jonas and Pogi, there just arent many riders in the world who can realistically make a big enough impact consistently.(he rides at UAE and dnfed) Team is up for the task, his only issue is w/kg, nothing else.

Even if Visma's domestics were in better shape which is debateable it means that Pogarar wins by more minutes.

Exactly, higher tempo would only benefit Pog more in the mountains, their more than good enough. the problem is only w/kg for Jonas.

 

[TrekCyclist]

He will not find a team (except UAE) with as good mountain doms as Kuss, Jorgenson and Yates simply because none is as strong as Visma (not just in the mountains but in medium terrain as well i.e. Campenaerts).

Maybe he should consider joining Bora-RB for next season. Together with Lipowitz, Roglic and Evenepoel, they could try to crack Pogacar

 

[James M]

Id argue Visma did the best possible could, create chaos and hope something happens on every flat, crosswind section, and tricky finish in the first week. Thats the only area where UAE as a team are vulnerable(in mountains their superios with strenght with no dnfs variables etc). The problem is, Pogi is the second-best rider at PR for instance and theres not much to do, besides if misshaps happens.

It really comes down to w/kg, unless Kuss can give Jonas 0.6w/kg more uphill by singing a song to him what exactly are they suppose to do? If they won people would praise their tactics/efforts now. Both Visma and UAE are both operating at a level its not a team diff at all either way.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Maybe he should consider joining Bora-RB for next season. Together with Lipowitz, Roglic and Evenepoel, they could try to crack Pogacar

Teaming up with Evenepoel against Pogacar is perhaps the best hope for Vingegaard.

 

[Berniece]

Teaming up with Evenepoel against Pogacar is perhaps the best hope for Vingegaard.

Both of them are too arrogant for that. If Vingegaard or Evenepoel would attack, and Pogacar would not immediately jump on the wheel, the others would. They can't play poker and just go after the other.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.

None of those guys could have helped on Hautacam. It was mano-a-mano, a moment of truth.
Visma picked up a Giro with Yates. Pretty good trade-off for Yates not being in absolute peak shape to guide Vingo to another 2nd place, which he would have gotten anyway. As for Jorgenson, yeah, I'm not sure what happened there, either, tbh.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Maybe he should consider joining Bora-RB for next season. Together with Lipowitz, Roglic and Evenepoel, they could try to crack Pogacar

Not realistic but i assume that RBH could afford it.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe he should consider joining Bora-RB for next season. Together with Lipowitz, Roglic and Evenepoel, they could try to crack Pogacar

Lipo would have the strongest set of superdoms ever! Even stronger than Kuss had at Vuelta'23.