Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

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pelotonIQ

pelotonIQ

May 3, 2023
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Pozzovivo said:
Which was exactly what I said in the original post. OnIy guy who did not deliver for Vingegaard in the tour.
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Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.
 
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SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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pelotonIQ said:
Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.
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Visma set Vingegaard up for success on many stages and kept an intense pace that only tired himself out vs Pogacar. Every rider on the team could have been at their peak and Vingegaard still would have lost because Pogacar was that much better.
 
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Krzysztof_O

Krzysztof_O

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pelotonIQ said:
Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.
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He will not find a team (except UAE) with as good mountain doms as Kuss, Jorgenson and Yates simply because none is as strong as Visma (not just in the mountains but in medium terrain as well i.e. Campenaerts). They threw a kitchen sink at Pogacar during Mt Ventoux and Loze stages but it wasn't enough cause Vingo simply couldn't drop the Slovenian. They really underperformed only on Hautacam stage (cooking themselves on the penultimate climb) but it didn't matter anyway cause Vingo (clearly on a worse day) had no answer to Pogi's thermonuclear attack at the base of the climb and was much worse than his main rival on that day.
 
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pelotonIQ

pelotonIQ

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SHAD0W93 said:
Visma set Vingegaard up for success on many stages and kept an intense pace that only tired himself out vs Pogacar. Every rider on the team could have been at their peak and Vingegaard still would have lost because Pogacar was that much better.
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No, they absolutely didn't. There was room for a lot more but his domestiques ran out of legs very soon, why? Because they were not at their peak. For Jonas to beat Pogacar he needs to have a superior team around him which he didn't. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much better Pogacar if you're Visma, your job is to give Jonas a full team of domestiques in top shape ready to fight for the Tour. It was a total embarrasment from Visma, top to bottom. Jonas deserves better from Visma, he has given them 2 Tours but they want to have their cake and eat it too by bringing big names that are fatigued from racing Giro and spring classics.
 
Pozzovivo

Pozzovivo

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pelotonIQ said:
Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.
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I really don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

And you have to compare it to UAE. Sivakov, Soler, Almeida DNF, Yates, even Politt?

Jorgenson had an excellent first 10 stages, did a strong job again on Col de la Madeleine, and overall delivered exactly what you’d expect from a key support rider.

Kuss was exceptional in the mountains on Soulor, Ventoux, and again on Madeleine he reduced the group to only GC riders, and on Madeleine it was down to just Pogacar and Vingegaard. Textbook super-domestique work!

Simon Yates was a bit up-and-down, but so was Adam Yates for UAE. that’s the nature of racing after Giro, and Simon still had strong days where he played his part and won a stage which is good for team moral!

Wout van Aert we all agree didn’t meet expectations, especially in the first week where he didn’t even help Jonas with positioning to instead go for "sprints". Shameful.

Beyond that, Campenaerts was excellent, Benoot performed in line with expectations, and Affini was strong on all the flat stages, arguably better than Politt! Overall, this was a very good collective effort from the team.

What Jonas needs is better w/kg than Pogacar.
 
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pelotonIQ

pelotonIQ

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Pozzovivo said:
I really don’t think that’s a fair assessment at all.

And you have to compare it to UAE. Sivakov, Soler, Almeida DNF, Yates, even Politt?

Jorgenson had an excellent first 10 stages, did a strong job again on Col de la Madeleine, and overall delivered exactly what you’d expect from a key support rider.

Kuss was exceptional in the mountains on Soulor, Ventoux, and again on Madeleine he reduced the group to only GC riders, and on Madeleine it was down to just Pogacar and Vingegaard. Textbook super-domestique work!

Simon Yates was a bit up-and-down, but so was Adam Yates for UAE — that’s the nature of racing after Giro, and Simon still had strong days where he played his part and won a stage which is good for team moral!

Wout van Aert we all agree didn’t meet expectations, especially in the first week where he didn’t even help Jonas with positioning to go for "sprints". Shameful.

Beyond that, Campenaerts was excellent, Benoot performed in line with expectations, and Affini was strong on all the flat stages, arguably better than Politt! Overall, this was a very good collective effort from the team.

What Jonas needs is better w/kg than Pogacar.
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The argument is about Visma not giving Jonas a team in peak shape for the Tour. Comparing Visma domestique performances with UAE is irrelevant, couldn't care less how good/bad UAE domestiques perfomed, this is about Visma domestiques not being in peak shape for Jonas and it's the management's fault. You know that Tadej has a higher w/kg so everything hinges upon you having a stronger team like in previous Tours where Jonas won.
 
SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

Aug 13, 2011
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pelotonIQ said:
No, they absolutely didn't. There was room for a lot more but his domestiques ran out of legs very soon, why? Because they were not at their peak. For Jonas to beat Pogacar he needs to have a superior team around him which he didn't. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much better Pogacar if you're Visma, your job is to give Jonas a full team of domestiques in top shape ready to fight for the Tour. It was a total embarrasment from Visma, top to bottom. Jonas deserves better from Visma, he has given them 2 Tours but they want to have their cake and eat it too by bringing big names that are fatigued from racing Giro and spring classics.
Click to expand...
Or maybe they were fatigued from attacking every single stage. Kuss and Simon were supposed to be there in the mountains, they were. Jorgenson was constantly there and attacking before he ran out of juice. Every rider bar WVA was there to set Vingegaard up for success. Their only hope was Vingegaard having the better recovery, he didn’t. This isn’t a video game, Visma ran themselves on empty against a stronger opponent.
 
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Y

yaco

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pelotonIQ said:
The argument is about Visma not giving Jonas a team in peak shape for the Tour. Comparing Visma domestique performances with UAE is irrelevant, couldn't care less how good/bad UAE domestiques perfomed, this is about Visma domestiques not being in peak shape for Jonas and it's the management's fault. You know that Tadej has a higher w/kg so everything hinges upon you having a stronger team like in previous Tours where Jonas won.
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Even if Visma's domestics were in better shape which is debateable it means that Pogarar wins by more minutes.
 
James M

James M

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Visma peaked in 22/23 that should be easy for everyone to see and admit, no? Now, most of their best riders are on the decline relative to others. Unlike UAE, whose riders are mostly younger/ improving and above all have a much larger pool to pick from.

That being said, Visma isnt the issue at all. Jonas wont find a better team for the Tour than Visma, even now (besides UAE). Relative to other teams, Visma is still really, really strong. And considering the discrepancy in the mountains compared to the rest after Jonas and Pogi, there just arent many riders in the world who can realistically make a big enough impact consistently.(he rides at UAE and dnfed) Team is up for the task, his only issue is w/kg, nothing else.
yaco said:
Even if Visma's domestics were in better shape which is debateable it means that Pogarar wins by more minutes.
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Exactly, higher tempo would only benefit Pog more in the mountains, their more than good enough. the problem is only w/kg for Jonas.
 
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James M

James M

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Id argue Visma did the best possible could, create chaos and hope something happens on every flat, crosswind section, and tricky finish in the first week. Thats the only area where UAE as a team are vulnerable(in mountains their superios with strenght with no dnfs variables etc). The problem is, Pogi is the second-best rider at PR for instance and theres not much to do, besides if misshaps happens.

It really comes down to w/kg, unless Kuss can give Jonas 0.6w/kg more uphill by singing a song to him what exactly are they suppose to do? If they won people would praise their tactics/efforts now. Both Visma and UAE are both operating at a level its not a team diff at all either way.
 
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Moose McKnuckles

Moose McKnuckles

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pelotonIQ said:
Kuss didn't deliver, Jorgenson didn't deliver, S.Yates didn't deliver let alone Wout, these are his main soldiers and they didn't do what was expected from them. If I'm Jonas I'm going straight to Niermann and tell him I want domestiques in peak shape for the Tour or else what's the point of riding for Visma, I can get 2nd place in Tour riding for any team in the world.
Click to expand...
None of those guys could have helped on Hautacam. It was mano-a-mano, a moment of truth.
Visma picked up a Giro with Yates. Pretty good trade-off for Yates not being in absolute peak shape to guide Vingo to another 2nd place, which he would have gotten anyway. As for Jorgenson, yeah, I'm not sure what happened there, either, tbh.
 
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