Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Mountain Sprinter

[theyoungest]

I love Vingegaard I do but he has never showned he is able to match peak pogacar not even before this year which he has gotten extremely much better like you say, but indeed a little bit closer maybe for the fun of it indeed, but also dont forget Pog did the Giro.

He has 2 GT to his name thats it and both somewhat asterisk to both it is what is.

While your theory is likable the numbers are not backing it - he has never produced better numbers forget the TT, he outdid that this year on stage 15 there isnt anything to discuss on every metric and still Pogacar is on a training ride on his wheel not even effected,smiling and riding without no hands, its just mental how much stronger he really is if were beeing real.

There just is a super alien out there nothing else, Vingegaard is still a brilliant rider ofc goes without saying.

Basically your argument is: if Vingegaard (or anyone really) beats Pogacar, it's just a regular performance. If it's the other way around, it's superhuman.

Imagine Pogi spending two weeks in the hospital, and having just 6 weeks to properly prepare for the Tour, starting from basically zero. You think he reaches the level he had this year? Of course not. Why is it that for Vingegaard apparently this doesn't count?

 

[Cookster15]

Basically your argument is: if Vingegaard (or anyone really) beats Pogacar, it's just a regular performance. If it's the other way around, it's superhuman.

Imagine Pogi spending two weeks in the hospital, and having just 6 weeks to properly prepare for the Tour, starting from basically zero. You think he reaches the level he had this year? Of course not. Why is it that for Vingegaard apparently this doesn't count?

tbf it was Visma and Vingegaard who claimed he was at a top level despite his huge crash and the numbers he did in the tour suggest he was better than 2022 and 2023.

For example while dropping over a minute on PdB Vingegaard was still two minutes faster than the previous climb record set by Pantani in 1998.

Peak Vingegaard won’t beat peak Pogacar. The 2024 Tour erased a number of myths. Another one was that Vingegaard is better on long, hot and hard stages.

 

[Froome]

Peak Vingegaard won’t beat peak Pogacar. The 2024 Tour erased a number of myths. Another one was that Vingegaard is better on long, hot and hard stages.

Why do you think that? Did Pogacar ever beat Vingegaard without injuries in the Tour? Because the opposite already happened.

Don’t look at the best w/kg ever, just because of one day on Plateau de beille.

Everybody was doing the best w/kg ever. Landa and Remco were doing 6.4 w/kg on Plateau beille, better than Vingegaard on Hautacam in 2022.

That's how w/kg are evolving for every rider, so it means Vingegaard couldn't improve at the least, the same % the others riders improved.

Besides that, he was second at only 6 minutes after racing with less muscle mass than his normal. The body wasn't at 100%. Probably he was less than 58 kg.


Pogacar finished far from Vingegaard in 2023, with a injury who wasn't so severe.


Let's imagine Pogacar with pneumotorax, collarbone, broken ribs, 2 weeks in the hospital in April, and in July he will finish at 15 min of Vingegaard.

 

[James M]

Why do you think that? Did Pogacar ever beat Vingegaard without injuries in the Tour? Because the opposite already happened.

Hillarious. Vingegaard has 2 GT's to his name and both with an asterisk to it. Funny

One could argue very overhyped but whats the point. Fact is 2 GT's one vs broken hand and another where his own team stated Pogacar beat himself Other is Pogacvar annihilating when he push the best numbers he ever has, and even in 23 in PN before he got hurt it wasnt exactly close.
Funny how facts work.Why bother twisting stuff is beyond me..

 

[RedheadDane]

Other is Pogacvar annihilating when he push the best numbers he ever has, funny how facts work.Why bother twisting stuff is beyond me..

Let's see if those numbers are still his best numbers when he - hopefully - isn't racing shortly after recovering from career - and potentially even life - threatening injuries.

 

[RedheadDane]

Indeed i hope he does for everyone sake and not out of the question he does either though its a tough ask at that level.

Personally i just think he has less to go on than others like even Evenepoel which can push weight more. But totally agree lets hope he can improve even more which is possible.

Let's hope that next year all the contenders will arrive without having recently returned from injury.
And all make it to Paris.

 

[Cookster15]

Let's imagine Pogacar with pneumotorax, collarbone, broken ribs, 2 weeks in the hospital in April, and in July he will finish at 15 min of Vingegaard.

Sure, but it was Visma and Vingegaard, not Pogacar, his fans or Gianetti who said Jonas wouldn't ride the Tour if he didn't believe he could win it despite all those injuries. Despite those injuries team Visma and people like Richard Plugge were very cocky their plan would work right up until Pog dropped Vingo on PdB - stage 15. Now we make excuses? You can't have it both ways.

And I think there were more than two riders in the Tour? One of them was backing up from winning the Giro d'Italia by 10 minutes. In the Tour Pogacar beat Remco in 3rd by 9' with 4th on GC at 19'. And unlike Pog last year Vingegaard never cracked and still was clearly 2nd strongest rider in the race. In the Nice TT Vingegaard was 2nd and beat Remco !

Pogacar crashed in the 2023 LBL on April 23. That's nearly three weeks closer to the Tour than Jonas's crash on April 4. That wrist injury obviously cost him hugely in baseload conditioning and recovery losing 5 minutes on the Col de la Loze after he had emptied his reserves the previous day trying to stay in touch with Vingo on that infamous Combloux TT.

Then, as I mentioned in the comment you replied to, there were other myths erased by Pogacar - like Jonas is better on long hot stages (PdB was a long hot stage). Or Jonas is better at altitude (stage 19 crossed the highest point in the history of the Tour).

We all look forward to the rematch. But please do not downplay or make excuses for happened in the 2024 Tour.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sure, but it was Visma and Vingegaard, not Pogacar, his fans or Gianetti who said Jonas wouldn't ride the Tour if he didn't believe he could win it despite all those injuries. Despite those injuries team Visma and people like Richard Plugge were very cocky their plan would work right up until Pog dropped Vingo on PdB - stage 15. Now we make excuses? You can't have it both ways.

And I think there were more than two riders in the Tour? One of them was backing up from winning the Giro d'Italia by 10 minutes. In the Tour Pogacar beat Remco in 3rd by 9' with 4th on GC at 19'. And unlike Pog last year Vingegaard never cracked and still was clearly 2nd strongest rider in the race. In the Nice TT Vingegaard was 2nd and beat Remco !

Pogacar crashed in the 2023 LBL on April 23. That's nearly three weeks closer to the Tour than Jonas's crash on April 4. That wrist injury obviously cost him hugely in baseload conditioning and recovery losing 5 minutes on the Col de la Loze after he had emptied his reserves the previous day trying to stay in touch with Vingo on that infamous Combloux TT.

Then, as I mentioned in the comment you replied to, there were other myths erased by Pogacar - like Jonas is better on long hot stages (PdB was a long hot stage). Or Jonas is better at altitude (stage 19 crossed the highest point in the history of the Tour).

We all look forward to the rematch. But please do not downplay or make excuses for happened in the 2024 Tour.

Spot on. Even him said he wouldn't give excuses in case Vingegaard was beaten by Pogacar in the Tour. I don't get it...
For me Vingegaard could be even better without injuries and the race would be a lot more interesting. Maybe next year, we have both of them healthy to deliver a fantastic show.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar finished far from Vingegaard in 2023, with an injury who wasn't so severe.


Let's imagine Pogacar with pneumotorax, collarbone, broken ribs, 2 weeks in the hospital in April, and in July he will finish at 15 min of Vingegaard.

Pog gave up on stage 17 after getting destroyed in the TT and crashing earlier in the stage. If he wanted to finish closer, he could have. Just like some overflow Evenepoel losing a lot of the time in 2023 Vuelta. Vingegaard never gave up since he was still fighting for second, Pog had second sealed up.

 

[James M]

Pog gave up on stage 17 after getting destroyed in the TT and crashing earlier in the stage.

He also rode with a fracture during the race its not the same at all

read this: Numbers never lie this stuff is very simple.
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...ghest-weve-ever-seen-in-professional-cycling/

''Without hyperbole, we may have just witnessed the best cyclist ever dominate the Tour de France.''

There are so big difference when were beeing real its kinda insane and thats not saying Vingegaard is bad he and Evenepoel are both very very good, Pogacar is just a terrestrial and the best weve ever seen, (numbers never lie)

 

[Cookster15]

thats not saying Vingegaard is bad he and Evenepoel are both very very good, Pogacar is just a terrestrial and the best weve ever seen, (numbers never lie)

This. I don't buy excuses about Vingegaard's April crash. His injuries were very severe but he and Visma were confident they were going to beat Pogacar right up until Plateau de Beille. They underestimated Pog fair and square.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

OK: we get it. Pogacar fans believe that there was very little wrong with Vingegaard in 2024; Vingegaard fans think there was not much wrong with Pogacar in 2023.

Anyone got anything different/new/interesting to say?

 

[RedheadDane]

OK: we get it. Pogacar fans believe that there was very little wrong with Vingegaard fans in 2024; Vingegaard fans think there was not much wrong with Pogacar in 2023.

Anyone got anything different/new/interesting to say?

I'm very glad Pogacar fans thinks there was very little wrong with Vingegaard fans (earlier) this year!

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I'm very glad Pogacar fans thinks there was very little wrong with Vingegaard fans (earlier) this year!

Oops: hope what I had meant was clear though.

 

[Mlarsen]

Handling lobsters

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5183193371765639&set=a.2007965029288505

 

[Peyroteo94]

Handling lobsters

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5183193371765639&set=a.2007965029288505

Fisherman!

 

[RedheadDane]

Handling lobsters

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5183193371765639&set=a.2007965029288505

Why does he look so threatening?
I'm scared...

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Why does he look so threatening?
I'm scared...

Fish aren‘t the only things he can cut up.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

OK: we get it. Pogacar fans believe that there was very little wrong with Vingegaard in 2024; Vingegaard fans think there was not much wrong with Pogacar in 2023.

Anyone got anything different/new/interesting to say?

They’re both wrong?

I don’t understand how it’s a debate, honestly:

• Pogacar paid for his wrist fracture in the 2023 Tour; Vingegaard paid for his multiple injuries in the 2024 Tour.
• Vingegaard’s injuries were almost certainly worse and more disruptive; Pogacar had less time to recover.
• Vingegaard put him record domination in the 2023 Tour ITT (remember the greatest Tour ITT in 70 years???); Pogacar smashed climbing records in 2024.
• Everyone, young and old, is setting climbing records.
• Nothing is certain for 2025. Giddyup.

 

[RedheadDane]

Vingegaard’s injuries were almost certainly worse and more disruptive; Pogacar had more time to recover.

Other way around.
Vingegaard's injury happened during Basque (on 4/4)
Pogacar's injury happened during LBL (on 23/4)

 

[BigCoward]

They’re both wrong?

I don’t understand how it’s a debate, honestly:

• Pogacar paid for his wrist fracture in the 2023 Tour; Vingegaard paid for his multiple injuries in the 2024 Tour.
• Vingegaard’s injuries were almost certainly worse and more disruptive; Pogacar had more time to recover.
• Vingegaard put him record domination in the 2023 Tour ITT (remember the greatest Tour ITT in 70 years???); Pogacar smashed climbing records in 2024.
• Everyone, young and old, is setting climbing records.
• Nothing is certain for 2025. Giddyup.

Yeah. Anyone suggesting this year's Vingo wouldn't have been better without the injury is nuts. I make it a toss up next year assuming both fully fit.

 

[Bolder]

Other way around.
Vingegaard's injury happened during Basque (on 4/4)
Pogacar's injury happened during LBL (on 23/4)

Probably the same. Tour started earlier this year and Pog was on the bike trainer right away while Vinge was in hospital for 10 days.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They’re both wrong?

I don’t understand how it’s a debate, honestly:

• Pogacar paid for his wrist fracture in the 2023 Tour; Vingegaard paid for his multiple injuries in the 2024 Tour.
• Vingegaard’s injuries were almost certainly worse and more disruptive; Pogacar had more time to recover.
• Vingegaard put him record domination in the 2023 Tour ITT (remember the greatest Tour ITT in 70 years???); Pogacar smashed climbing records in 2024.
• Everyone, young and old, is setting climbing records.
• Nothing is certain for 2025. Giddyup.

Pogacar had less time to recover but his base level didn't decrease a lot. The problem for Pogacar was the lack of time to train properly at altitude.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Handling lobsters

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5183193371765639&set=a.2007965029288505

Epic and scary stuff. It seems Pogi indeed sent Vingo back to fishing industry!

 

[theyoungest]

This. I don't buy excuses about Vingegaard's April crash. His injuries were very severe but he and Visma were confident they were going to beat Pogacar right up until Plateau de Beille. They underestimated Pog fair and square.

If there's one thing Visma do not do, it's underestimate Pogacar. They built their entire tactic and preparation for the 2022 and 2023 Tours around beating that one guy. Of course they weren't confident they were going to beat him this year, they never said so. They just believed there was a possibility, which you have to do. And given what they knew from previous years, they thought it would come later on in the Tour, when Vingegaard normally gets better (relatively speaking) and Pogi gets worse.

Neither of those things happened, in fact quite the opposite. But for Vingegaard that clearly was a result of his hampered preparation. I think it's pretty obvious he wasn't at his very best, far from it. He couldn't even follow Pogi and Evenepoel in medium mountain stages at some point. Even if you think Pogi is by far the best cyclist in the world (he clearly is) a fully fit Vingegaard can at least get a little closer.