Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[gooner]

The point is that Gooner was responding specifically to Benotti to whom "GB = Sky = Sir Dave = bad = guilty of doping" suffices as a framework for reasoning.

Exactly.

...

 

[gillan1969]

Exactly.

...

not really, at best the lines are blurred....

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

TeamGB Brailsford = Sky Brailford.

Sorry you cannot see it.

TeamGB has a link on its page for Sky FFS!

I'm fully well aware of the Sky/GB link. It's the link between JTL doping and GB/Sky being involved that has yet to be established. If JTL has kicked **** as a Sky rider I'd have some sympathy for your view, but given that he's been dire since signing for Sky it seems unlikely that Sky would be involved in doping him whilst he was contracted to Endura and then keep him clean when they're paying him!

The most likely scenario is that JTL doped independently at Endura to secure a big contract and then backed off at Sky in the face of more regular testing. (2 years at £400k before returning to obscurity and £40k a year would do me very nicely, thank you.) He then came a cropper as he'd not doped in a way that would still appear normal relative to genuine normal, due to not having Pro Tour rider level sophistication at the "Dark Arts".

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

not really, at best the lines are blurred....

The important part of Benotti's mindset is "Sir Dave=bad=guilty of doping".

 

[Catwhoorg]

The point in question is abnormally low ret% (unofficially anyway).

Sounds like a good old fashion blood bag before a major race. Probably had to do it before he traveled, which gave the retics time to be properly suppressed.
(again assuming guilt here, but given the track records on passport cases, once its started, they really have a high % of convictions)


Does anyone know how long before the Worlds race he arrived for it ?

 

[gillan1969]

I'm fully well aware of the Sky/GB link. It's the link between JTL doping and GB/Sky being involved that has yet to be established. If JTL has kicked **** as a Sky rider I'd have some sympathy for your view, but given that he's been dire since signing for Sky it seems unlikely that Sky would be involved in doping him whilst he was contracted to Endura and then keep him clean when they're paying him!

The most likely scenario is that JTL doped independently at Endura to secure a big contract and then backed off at Sky in the face of more regular testing. (2 years at £400k before returning to obscurity and £40k a year would do me very nicely, thank you.) He then came a cropper as he'd not doped in a way that would still appear normal relative to genuine normal, due to not having Pro Tour rider level sophistication at the "Dark Arts".

you don't need to look too hard to see JTL kicking **** as a sky rider on the link

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Alberto+Contador/Johnathan+Tiernan-Locke

 

[jens_attacks]

you don't need to look too hard to see JTL kicking **** as a sky rider on the link

la classe!!!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Apparently Sky relied on testing that Garmin had done, which seems an odd thing to do. I'd like to rely on testing I'd commissioned rather than something done for someone else.

If there was some team-level collusion with JTL then we have the bizarre situation of Sky/GB helping JTL dope, Sky signing him and then overseeing him not doping and hence being cr*p.

I wouldn't have signed JTL if I'd been at Sky, as his career progression looks decidedly dodgy, albeit at sub-Froome levels in absolute terms, and he was thus "high risk". Maybe they knew he was dodgy and wanted to be able to sack him to demonstrate their credentials, knowing that the "He was at Endura, guv" defence would satisfy the masses?

The thing is, with a lot of riders, you'd have thought asking people he's tested for for his test results and having him in for a while would be a not unreasonable amount of checking up. However, there are two factors that have to be considered.

1) JTL was not "a lot of riders", he was a fairly specific and unusual case of a guy who had been riding in obscurity who suddenly made a huge leap in level and was beating much better fields than he had been languishing in previously. As a result of how often this type of results pattern has led to discovery of doping, a very quick transition back to obscurity, or in extreme cases like Pecharromán, both, one after the other, you might have thought that given the high risk they might have wanted to conduct more due diligence in order to ensure they hadn't bought a dud or threatened their reputation;
2) Team Sky have made a big song and dance of their attention to detail, so they'd need to show that they had shown a high level of due diligence, so actually purchasing a dud or somebody who may threaten their reputation in precisely the way that JTL now has shown that they did, would make them look bad. Of course, this aspect of their self-hype has now been shown on several occasions to be as attentive as a wrestling referee, as it has been caught napping about a dozen times already while the bad guy's manager cheap shots the fan favourite.

 

[Morbius]

you don't need to look too hard to see JTL kicking **** as a sky rider on the link

I hope the smile at the end of that was meant to indicate irony

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Apparently Sky relied on testing that Garmin had done, which seems an odd thing to do. I'd like to rely on testing I'd commissioned rather than something done for someone else.

Really. So Sky look bad for not getting enough detail and now 500k / year anti-doping, "drug test the same cyclist before and after a step test to prove his performance yesterday and these last few years, despite rumours of doping, is clean" Garmin look bad for not providing reliable data?

Good oh.

 

[BroDeal]

Maybe JV looked at JTL's data, decided the guy was obviously doping, told Sky he looked a-okay, then laughed when Sky hired him.

After Sky used extortion to break Wiggins' contract with Garmin, why should JV warn Sky about JTL?

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe JV looked at JTL's data, decided the guy was obviously doping, told Sky he looked a-okay, then laughed when Sky hired him.

After Sky used extortion to break Wiggins' contract with Garmin, why should JV warn Sky about JTL?

Maybe Sky knew the deal with JTL, but didn't expect McQuaid would dump on them before leaving Aigle.

 

[thehog]

Maybe Sky knew the deal with JTL, but didn't expect McQuaid would dump on them before leaving Aigle.

JTL was training with Sky since April 12. During the camp DB earmarked and told JTL he'd like him for the Worlds team and to lead it.

Considering Wiggins had the Tour and the Games it made sense. The Dawg at the point was still the Dawg of old sans Vuelta 11.

JTL then injured himself with a broken collarbone. He returned to another training camp with Sky and was selected for the Worlds and had completed his personal discussions on joining Sky in 2013.

DB requested that for the good of JTL development that Endura hand him over straight after the worlds as he'd be all but in clothing a Sky rider. DB wanted him in the Sky fold, protected.

They agreed. For the better part of 2012 JTL was a Sky rider. He trained with them. He knew he was riding the worlds all year and had verbally agreed to ride with them in 2013.

JTL is a BC/Sky rider in 2012. Maybe not from Jan to March. But from then on he was under DB's wing.

The fact they they're hanging on to him shows the kid knows something. DB is blaming Endura but his black marks tests are in Sky/BC clothing/management and not before.

DB / Sky fingerprints are all over this.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm fully well aware of the Sky/GB link. It's the link between JTL doping and GB/Sky being involved that has yet to be established. If JTL has kicked **** as a Sky rider I'd have some sympathy for your view, but given that he's been dire since signing for Sky it seems unlikely that Sky would be involved in doping him whilst he was contracted to Endura and then keep him clean when they're paying him!

The most likely scenario is that JTL doped independently at Endura to secure a big contract and then backed off at Sky in the face of more regular testing. (2 years at £400k before returning to obscurity and £40k a year would do me very nicely, thank you.) He then came a cropper as he'd not doped in a way that would still appear normal relative to genuine normal, due to not having Pro Tour rider level sophistication at the "Dark Arts".

I do think in a perfect society that is a great way of portraying things. I just have a few pointers:

A: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB did not notice an alledged blooddoper?
B: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB didnt need the help of Roger Palfreeman [anymore I must add] and just rely on the super duper anti - doping procedures of the UCI?
C: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB is clearly stating they have no involvement with JTL while they were responsible for him showing up at the 2012 Worlds at Valkenburg a/t Geul?
D: Why is JTL removed from the Sky website? Innocent untill proven guilty?
E: and what Libertine said, duh.

Just a few pointers, valid ones.

 

[manafana]

sky will throw him under the bridge in my view if they even snif hes done anything wrong.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

sky will throw him under the bridge in my view if they even snif hes done anything wrong.

You mean after the bus?
Smashed, drowned and then what. Gutted?

 

[Ferminal]

But he hasn't done anything wrong, just had a night on the ****.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

After Sky used extortion to break Wiggins' contract with Garmin, why should JV warn Sky about JTL?

Please stop with this sob story.

1. Wiggo did sweet FA with Garmin before 2009 TdF. He was trained by Sky's head performance coach and didn't even attend the pre-Tour training camp. He didn't really ride for VdV and *****ed about lack of team support. He was essentially a Sky rider for 2009.

2. Sky paid Garmin something ridiculous like 2 million pounds for a transfer fee.

The video where JV discusses the contract break is completely robotic - not a single ounce of emotion.

Finally, he should warn them because otherwise it wrecks his narrative that the peloton (not just Garmin) is (getting) cleaner.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

But he hasn't done anything wrong, just had a night on the ****.

Zero tolerance....

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I do think in a perfect society that is a great way of portraying things. I just have a few pointers:

A: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB did not notice an alledged blooddoper?
B: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB didnt need the help of Roger Palfreeman [anymore I must add] and just rely on the super duper anti - doping procedures of the UCI?
C: how come super duper scientific team Sky/team GB is clearly stating they have no involvement with JTL while they were responsible for him showing up at the 2012 Worlds at Valkenburg a/t Geul?
D: Why is JTL removed from the Sky website? Innocent untill proven guilty?
E: and what Libertine said, duh.

Just a few pointers, valid ones.

Re A, I genuinely don't know. "What's Jtl on?" was a popular topic on club runs in spring 2012.

Still seems odd that Sky would go to all the trouble of doping him when he was riding for another team only for him to stop doping when they started paying him themselves.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

you don't need to look too hard to see JTL kicking **** as a sky rider on the link

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Alberto+Contador/Johnathan+Tiernan-Locke

So why has he been utter dross since then?

 

[Franklin]

Wiggo did sweet FA with Garmin before 2009 TdF. He was trained by Sky's head performance coach and didn't even attend the pre-Tour training camp. He didn't really ride for VdV and *****ed about lack of team support. He was essentially a Sky rider for 2009.

He only rode for garmin in 2009, so claiming he did zip for Garmin before 2009 seems quite correct

Also Sky had barely announced that it would start a team, so this is a tad overexaggerated (though the contacts on the contract side would have been there).

 

[thehog]

2) Team Sky have made a big song and dance of their attention to detail, so they'd need to show that they had shown a high level of due diligence, so actually purchasing a dud or somebody who may threaten their reputation in precisely the way that JTL now has shown that they did, would make them look bad. Of course, this aspect of their self-hype has now been shown on several occasions to be as attentive as a wrestling referee, as it has been caught napping about a dozen times already while the bad guy's manager cheap shots the fan favourite.

Attention to detail was fine. That's why he has a Sky issued SRM on his bike. They knew what he was up to and what they were buying. Which is why they were buying him.

DB had him leading the WC team from April when JTL attended the Sky training camp.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wiggo did sweet FA with Garmin before 2009 TdF.

He only rode for garmin in 2009, so claiming he did zip for Garmin before 2009 seems quite correct

Also Sky had barely announced that it would start a team, so this is a tad overexaggerated (though the contacts on the contract side would have been there).

Selective reading is selective. Try again. Garmin did not train him before the 2009 TdF.

Barely announced the team, yes, had meetings with ASO as a team, yes. British Cycling == Team Sky. Coached by (current) BC coach yes. Same coach slipped straight into head coach at Sky yes.

Whether it was Sky pedantically or not, matters not to my point: Garmin did not train or coach Wiggins, and according to him, did not help him to 4th at the Tour. To then say Garmin were upset that Sky poached Wiggins, despite paying Garmin millions of pounds to do so, seems disingenuous. Someone as genius as Vaughters must have surely seen the writing on the wall...

 

[BroDeal]

Selective reading is selective. Try again. Garmin did not train him before the 2009 TdF.

Barely announced the team, yes, had meetings with ASO as a team, yes. British Cycling == Team Sky. Coached by (current) BC coach yes. Same coach slipped straight into head coach at Sky yes.

Whether it was Sky pedantically or not, matters not to my point: Garmin did not train or coach Wiggins, and according to him, did not help him to 4th at the Tour. To then say Garmin were upset that Sky poached Wiggins, despite paying Garmin millions of pounds to do so, seems disingenuous. Someone as genius as Vaughters must have surely seen the writing on the wall...

Wiggins had a contract to ride with Garmin. He broke it. Vaughters has said he was not happy about it but Sky threatened to sue using a British legal precedent and he did not have the resources to fight it. Sky strong-armed other teams as well.