Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[thehog]

Similarly, for Wiggo, by a country mile, the decisive factor was that Sky was willing and able to offer £2m to secure a year of Wiggo's services. Which other cycling team has ever been able to do this? £2m would secure half a dozen very good domestiques for a year or a superdomestique for 2 years. As such, other teams just wouldn't be willing spend that much just to be allowed to spend even more on wages for a rider who, as Martin observes, was not a proven deliverer of the goods on the road.

True. What other team could or would be bothered to pay a fee for a contracted rider?

Cycllng for the riders under Verbruggen was tatamount to slavery. He did bring in minimum wage but I don't think the UCI was ever in favour in rider protection (bar Lance).

I think Wiggins may have been the first time that a EPL styled approach of a contracted rider was taken. With good reason. I'm not sure anyone expected the Wiggins 4th place to that point. Wiggins pre-Garmin was slumming it on French teams for 80k a year. Not sure what Garmin were paying him? 200k?

Nevertheless Sky needed him as not only was it a chance to win the Tour but he was good marketing for the team. It wasn't until Sky realised that win Grand Tours in much harder than than winning a track race.

The reason it all got brought up was Sky's British mentality on sporting contracts in relation to BSkyB, premiership football etc. would or may have been very different than the way things have been done in the past.

What does this have to do with JTL? A lot.

400k is an astounding amount of money for a Continental ride. Not Pro Continental but Continental. That's like Division 3.

Wages have certainly been driven up. I guess without the use of drugs and turning a donkey into a racehorse teams may have to buy quality these days!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

True. What other team could or would be bothered to pay a fee for a contracted rider?

Cycllng for the riders under Verbruggen was tatamount to slavery. He did bring in minimum wage but I don't think the UCI was ever in favour in rider protection (bar Lance).

I think Wiggins may have been the first time that a EPL styled approach of a contracted rider was taken. With good reason. I'm not sure anyone expected the Wiggins 4th place to that point. Wiggins pre-Garmin was slumming it on French teams for 80k a year. Not sure what Garmin were paying him? 200k?

Nevertheless Sky needed him as not only was it a chance to win the Tour but he was good marketing for the team. It wasn't until Sky realised that win Grand Tours in much harder than than winning a track race.

The reason it all got brought up was Sky's British mentality on sporting contracts in relation to BSkyB, premiership football etc. would or may have been very different than the way things have been done in the past.

What does this have to do with JTL? A lot.

400k is an astounding amount of money for a Continental ride. Not Pro Continental but Continental. That's like Division 3.

Wages have certainly been driven up. I guess without the use of drugs and turning a donkey into a racehorse teams may have to buy quality these days!

Blimey. We appear to be in broad agreement.

Sky's money has bid up the wage levels for riders, but only the riders that Sky wants. From what I've read, there's no knock-on effect lower down the food chain, as the withdrawal of sponsors from cycling has reduced the number of pro contracts, with an obvious detriment to wages for marginal riders.

Lord only knows why they put JTL on £400k per year.

 

[thehog]

Blimey. We appear to be in broad agreement.

Sky's money has bid up the wage levels for riders, but only the riders that Sky wants. From what I've read, there's no knock-on effect lower down the food chain, as the withdrawal of sponsors from cycling has reduced the number of pro contracts, with an obvious detriment to wages for marginal riders.

Lord only knows why they put JTL on £400k per year.

I think we are! quickly shut down the thread!

And with that money Garmin were never going to match he salary from Sky. But Sky has to pay out Garmin. I guess the problem was the amount and that Sky could afford to take it court which Garmin would have to defend themselves win, lose or draw. And that would cost even if a Garmin won.

In regards to JTL; 400k for an unproven rider coming from a lower divisions is astounding. It's not like he was coming from another ProTour team. He was on 40k at Endura. Brailford could have paid in 100k or 200k and JTL would have signed.

Or maybe that was Vaughter's pack back for Wiggins? Drive up the price of a guy he knew was doping?

 

[King Boonen]

I'd suggest that JTL was signed on a hope. No matter what you think of Froome it's a fact he has not generated nearly as much press as Wiggins did. Wiggins, along with Chris Hoy and Mark Cavendish, transcend the sport in Britain, people who couldn't give a monkeys about cycling know who they are and this made Wiggins essential to Sky trying to build a "British" team.

It's unlikely that anyone is going to do that again anytime soon, but JTL had a following on the local scene with older guys who may not have been natural Sky fans, preferring the more established teams.

I think the got JTL in on the hope of a British rider reaching the same heights as Wiggins, or even doing well in the classics. A British rider who was already known and not previously tied to Sky. Maybe this blinded them to the fact that he seemed a bit too goo to be true, or maybe they just decided to risk it.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Maybe this blinded them to the fact that he seemed a bit too good to be true, or maybe they just decided to risk it.

JTL has pulled off the difficult task of being not very good yet too good to be true at the same time. Chapeau to him for that!

 

[TourOfSardinia]

JTL has pulled off the difficult task of being not very good yet too good to be true at the same time. Chapeau to him for that!

LoL!





......

 

[SundayRider]

I think we are! quickly shut down the thread!

And with that money Garmin were never going to match he salary from Sky. But Sky has to pay out Garmin. I guess the problem was the amount and that Sky could afford to take it court which Garmin would have to defend themselves win, lose or draw. And that would cost even if a Garmin won.

In regards to JTL; 400k for an unproven rider coming from a lower divisions is astounding. It's not like he was coming from another ProTour team. He was on 40k at Endura. Brailford could have paid in 100k or 200k and JTL would have signed.

Or maybe that was Vaughter's pack back for Wiggins? Drive up the price of a guy he knew was doping?

To keep him quiet maybe?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

To keep him quiet maybe?

Surely any "hush money" would find its way to JTL via a more opaque route than included in his rider salary.

News International definitely know how to make a discrete payment...

 

[thehog]

I'd suggest that JTL was signed on a hope. No matter what you think of Froome it's a fact he has not generated nearly as much press as Wiggins did. Wiggins, along with Chris Hoy and Mark Cavendish, transcend the sport in Britain, people who couldn't give a monkeys about cycling know who they are and this made Wiggins essential to Sky trying to build a "British" team.

It's unlikely that anyone is going to do that again anytime soon, but JTL had a following on the local scene with older guys who may not have been natural Sky fans, preferring the more established teams.

I think the got JTL in on the hope of a British rider reaching the same heights as Wiggins, or even doing well in the classics. A British rider who was already known and not previously tied to Sky. Maybe this blinded them to the fact that he seemed a bit too goo to be true, or maybe they just decided to risk it.

To that point I wonder what Froome was on pre-Vuelta '11? Back in the day when he was giving up his bike for Greg Henderson.

But yes agree. Froome could win the Tour 7 times but he'll never be Wiggins. Wiggo is premiership footballer / cyclist.

 

[Franklin]

What is less obvious is whether this would apply to cycling. Have transfer fees been the norm in cycling and if so, did Bosman affect them? (i.e. were teams able to charge transfer fees on out of contract riders?).

That was my genuine question... and I'm certainly no Sky apologist as my posting history has shown.

IANAL, but as far as I can see in the Wiggo case it was between him and Garmin and Sky had no legal involvement. Ofc in the end the reparation will have been footed by Sky and Sky certainly was pragmatically seen very much involved, but it was about disolving the contract between Wiggo and Garmin.

That it was pretty much a d***move and could spell trouble for the sport (I don't think the Soccer example is something to be happy about) I certainly support. But that's a moral observation.

So again: In how far has this Wiggo case been changing cycling? Is it more common to buy out contracts? Not a cynical question, simply curious....

 

[Franklin]

To that point I wonder what Froome was on pre-Vuelta '11? Back in the day when he was giving up his bike for Greg Henderson.

But yes agree. Froome could win the Tour 7 times but he'll never be Wiggins. Wiggo is premiership footballer / cyclist.

Froome is not homegrown Brittish. I wonder if winning an Olympic medal is a faster way to be adopted than a TdF win. Also, his spat with fan-favourite BW will not have helped.

That said, they got JTL because of the results he had, not because he was a true Britton.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Froome is not homegrown Brittish. I wonder if winning an Olympic medal is a faster way to be adopted than a TdF win. Also, his spat with fan-favourite BW will not have helped.

There's a certain requirement to do heroic deeds for a long time as well. At some point during the 2012 OGs, Wiggo had won more Olympic gongs, over 4 OGs, in total than any other Brit. (I think Hoy overtook him later in the week.) This kind of longevity sits well with the British fans.

If Froome keeps winning and doesn't behave like Kevin Pietersen, he will eventually be accepted.

 

[Franklin]

There's a certain requirement to do heroic deeds for a long time as well. At some point during the 2012 OGs, Wiggo had won more Olympic gongs, over 4 OGs, in total than any other Brit. (I think Hoy overtook him later in the week.) This kind of longevity sits well with the British fans.

If Froome keeps winning and doesn't behave like Kevin Pietersen, he will eventually be accepted.

I'd imagine the sombre edges of Wiggo also struck a cord.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the got JTL in on the hope of a British rider reaching the same heights as Wiggins, or even doing well in the classics. A British rider who was already known and not previously tied to Sky. Maybe this blinded them to the fact that he seemed a bit too goo to be true, or maybe they just decided to risk it.

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome
TTs: Wiggins
Sprints: Cavendish
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics: ?

It was the one gap in their plan for worldwide, universal cycling domination in all the big races. Cavendish could win San Remo (he's done it before) and the Olympic RR, Thomas was the hope to win RvV and Roubaix, Wiggins and Froome between them could share out any stage race they wished to enter, and Wiggins to aim for the Olympic and World TTs as well as the Tour. But Sky's best men for the hilly Classics were - and still are - the Colombians (now only Henao of course, but still). JTL gave them a shot at having a British rider who would be capable of targeting those races, and then they would at least have somebody who the home fans could get invested in for all the major races.

 

[TheGame]

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome
TTs: Wiggins
Sprints: Cavendish
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics: ?

It was the one gap in their plan for worldwide, universal cycling domination in all the big races. Cavendish could win San Remo (he's done it before) and the Olympic RR, Thomas was the hope to win RvV and Roubaix, Wiggins and Froome between them could share out any stage race they wished to enter, and Wiggins to aim for the Olympic and World TTs as well as the Tour. But Sky's best men for the hilly Classics were - and still are - the Colombians (now only Henao of course, but still). JTL gave them a shot at having a British rider who would be capable of targeting those races, and then they would at least have somebody who the home fans could get invested in for all the major races.

Kennaugh and Swift

 

[thehog]

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome
TTs: Wiggins
Sprints: Cavendish
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics: ?

It was the one gap in their plan for worldwide, universal cycling domination in all the big races. Cavendish could win San Remo (he's done it before) and the Olympic RR, Thomas was the hope to win RvV and Roubaix, Wiggins and Froome between them could share out any stage race they wished to enter, and Wiggins to aim for the Olympic and World TTs as well as the Tour. But Sky's best men for the hilly Classics were - and still are - the Colombians (now only Henao of course, but still). JTL gave them a shot at having a British rider who would be capable of targeting those races, and then they would at least have somebody who the home fans could get invested in for all the major races.

Thomas?

...

 

[coinneach]

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome
TTs: Wiggins
Sprints: Cavendish
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics: ?

It was the one gap in their plan for worldwide, universal cycling domination in all the big races. Cavendish could win San Remo (he's done it before) and the Olympic RR, Thomas was the hope to win RvV and Roubaix, Wiggins and Froome between them could share out any stage race they wished to enter, and Wiggins to aim for the Olympic and World TTs as well as the Tour. But Sky's best men for the hilly Classics were - and still are - the Colombians (now only Henao of course, but still). JTL gave them a shot at having a British rider who would be capable of targeting those races, and then they would at least have somebody who the home fans could get invested in for all the major races.

The bolded bit is trotted out fairly regularly here.
But I wonder which pro-team ISNT trying to do as well as it can in ALL areas?
OK: we all know some are better at some races than others, but why should Sky be any different from other teams in trying to be competitive in all areas?

 

[King Boonen]

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome
TTs: Wiggins
Sprints: Cavendish
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics: ?

It was the one gap in their plan for worldwide, universal cycling domination in all the big races. Cavendish could win San Remo (he's done it before) and the Olympic RR, Thomas was the hope to win RvV and Roubaix, Wiggins and Froome between them could share out any stage race they wished to enter, and Wiggins to aim for the Olympic and World TTs as well as the Tour. But Sky's best men for the hilly Classics were - and still are - the Colombians (now only Henao of course, but still). JTL gave them a shot at having a British rider who would be capable of targeting those races, and then they would at least have somebody who the home fans could get invested in for all the major races.

Makes sense. And if he can perform at them you could even give him a shot at the vuelta. That could mean Wiggins, Froome and JTL for the three GTs. Never going to happen of course, but you need to be ambitious.

 

[The Hitch]

Also, in theory, 2012, Sky could look to the following to aim for British success to energize the patriotic fanbase:

GTs & stage races (TT-biased): Wiggins, Froome,
GTs & stage races (climb-biased): Froome, Wiggins
TTs: Wiggins, Froome
Sprints: Cavendish,
Flat/Cobbled Classics: Thomas, Stannard
Hilly Classics:

.

Fixed it for you.

Froome has podiumed every non prologue gt tt he has done since 2011 and was 3rd in the olympics. Wiggins was 2nd best climber at the 2012 tour and possibly year round, the best climber in the world in 2012.

 

[Franklin]

Fixed it for you.

Froome has podiumed every non prologue gt tt he has done since 2011 and was 3rd in the olympics. Wiggins was 2nd best climber at the 2012 tour and possibly year round, the best climber in the world in 2012.

Isn't that 20/20 hindsight? Libertine Seguiros is talking about the forming of the squad for season 2012. We didn't know:

1. If Wiggo would be able to climb consistently
2. If Froome would be able to remain a great TT specialist.

Now in the end Wiggo became 2012's best climber (I agree there) and Froome expanded on his capabilities. But anyone who would have claimed such a thing before 2012 would have been in the minority, especially since it was expected to be Andy's year.

 

[Ferminal]

Well Froome's TT'ing has never really been worse than his climbing (albeit from a limited sample of results in either discipline) so you wouldn't have expected anything less in the past two years.

 

[Franklin]

Well Froome's TT'ing has never really been worse than his climbing (albeit from a limited sample of results in either discipline) so you wouldn't have expected anything less in the past two years.

Well, he only had the Vuelta 2011 as breakout success and that was an odd race. I certainly hadn't expected him to go from 2012 and 2013 with such big leaps.

 

[wirral]

JTL??

10 chars

 

[Libertine Seguros]

JTL??

10 chars

That was kind of the point. Early 2012, they had a British guy who could at least be enough of a peripheral contender for them to hype to the domestic press at every type of race... except for the type of race that it looked like JTL was built for. So when he did his Pecharromán act with Endura, Sky wanted him because he seemed like the final piece of the puzzle.

Of course every team wants to win every race they enter, but with Sky they could win it with talents they could sell to the domestic audience. Cavendish and Wiggins are given; their status in Britain is solid. Froome as a GT guy, assuming (remember, we're talking from early 2012 here) his Vuelta form could be replicated. In the flat and/or cobbled classics, you would argue that the experienced Juan Antonio Flecha and the one-time phenom Edvald Boasson Hagen would be bigger threats of victory than Geraint Thomas, who is now many years removed from his U23 Roubaix show, but Thomas would still be capable enough of being a contender that they could sell him as a big part of the team's assault on the races when hyping to the UK audience. For the hilly Classics there was no such equivalent, as Sky's only real contenders were the Colombians, Urán and Henao, and the British public never took them to heart, as can be seen from the amount of attention Urán's Giro podium in the colours of Team Sky got. JTL going thermonuclear on hilly races in February and March 2013 made him look like an ideal candidate that Sky could have somebody who perhaps would be no more than part of an ensemble cast with Henao, Urán, Nordhaug and others, but that they could sell as a legit British contender to the casual fan.

 

[Morbius]

Please don't start discussing the Webster ruling. That might actually be relevant.