Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[thehog]

I think that might be a red herring.

It’s a relevant question but JTL without the BP infraction is effectively following the Sky UK rider progression.

Wiggins Garmin 2009 – Really Good, Sky 2010 – Bad.
Froome Barloworld 2009 – OK, Sky 2010 – Bad, 2011 first half, Bad.

Thomas was awarded an MBE in 2009 for his results and upon joining Team Sky in 2010 he was rather indifferent. 2011 he was very good.

JTL is following suit as those before him at Team Sky. Not a red herring but fact. Think I’ve demonstrated that very well in the evidence and details provided.

The argument that JTL’s poor results at Sky compared to his previous year is not unusual when looking at all the UK riders in context. My feeling as JTL, Smith and Co. have stated that’s its adjustment to Kerrison’s rigid and restless training program.

Therefore that JTL doped alone and stopped at Sky doesn’t hold in my opinion. He was under Sky’s care during the infraction and I don’t believe for a minute that Endura out of Scotland was running a team wide doping program. Sky, yes, I think that’s plausible considering JTL’s performances after he broke his collarbone was doping with them. ToB and WC were very good whilst with training Sky and under their care.

 

[the sceptic]

Pretty much agree with the bolded.

Brailsford is a troubled genius it seems. Sometimes he is a cycling mastermind that can have cleans riders become better than dopers, but other times he cannot avoid signing a bunch of dopers no matter how hard he tries to avoid it.

 

[Benotti69]

Agreed. Kimmage asked the question, why did marginal gains only work on 2-3 riders? It still is a good question as Sky has spent millions and outside of a couple guys they have massively under-performed.......but that is for another thread.

This thread is about JTL being put on the full Sky program a year before he is on the team, then suddenly sucking when he put on the kit. I blame Rapha

You and BroDeal

 

[More Strides than Rides]

It’s a relevant question but JTL without the BP infraction is effectively following the Sky UK rider progression.

Wiggins Garmin 2009 – Really Good, Sky 2010 – Bad.
Froome Barloworld 2009 – OK, Sky 2010 – Bad, 2011 first half, Bad.

Thomas was awarded an MBE in 2009 for his results and upon joining Team Sky in 2010 he was rather indifferent. 2011 he was very good.

JTL is following suit as those before him at Team Sky. Not a red herring but fact. Think I’ve demonstrated that very well in the evidence and details provided.

The argument that JTL’s poor results at Sky compared to his previous year is not unusual when looking at all the UK riders in context. My feeling as JTL, Smith and Co. have stated that’s its adjustment to Kerrison’s rigid and restless training program.

Therefore that JTL doped alone and stopped at Sky doesn’t hold in my opinion. He was under Sky’s care during the infraction and I don’t believe for a minute that Endura out of Scotland was running a team wide doping program. Sky, yes, I think that’s plausible considering JTL’s performances after he broke his collarbone was doping with them. ToB and WC were very good whilst with training Sky and under their care.

But those riders did not spend a year in transition as JTL did: The full sky program, without the sky jersey. Switch out team names for the actual training and prep programs, and its
JTL: 2011 Rapha, Good enough --> 2012 (Sky) Good --> 2013 Sky, bad.

 

[Race Radio]

I think the facts speak for themselves

Facts? Any facts to support your claim that Brailsford named JTL as leader for the Worlds in April 2013?

As usual your interest is not meaningful dialog but baiting, conflict, trolling. Some things never change.

 

[thehog]

But those riders did not spend a year in transition as JTL did: The full sky program, without the sky jersey. Switch out team names for the actual training and prep programs, and its
JTL: 2011 Rapha, Good enough --> 2012 (Sky) Good --> 2013 Sky, bad.

I'm mealy responding to RRs theory.

As stated JTL was coming from ProCont. hence his transition.

Wiggins, Froome and Thomas not. They were already at ProTour level.

The point stands. The dip in JTLs form from "official" join date is more to do with being on the full Kerrison training, racing and longer distances equally illness. And not that he stopped his solo personal doping.

That's very far fetched.

Endura were clear that the point in time whereby JTL has the alleged doping infraction he was under Sky's care. It's can't be much clearer than that.

It's most disingenuous of Brailsford to lay blame with Endura but that's DB, forever the used car salesman.

 

[thehog]

Facts? Any facts to support your claim that Brailsford named JTL as leader for the Worlds in April 2013?

As usual your interest is not meaningful dialog but baiting, conflict, trolling. Some things never change.

As you to Moncoutie? A few people have asked for you to back up that claim that he was a doper.

I've responded with fairness and calm to your points. Not seeing how that's baiting.

You may not like my responses but I am providing links etc. as proof.

I can't help of that's what occurred. Endura and Smith have been very explicit on what occurred under Sky's care.

 

[Race Radio]

The dip in JTLs form from "official" join date is more to do with being on the full Kerrison training,.

So he wasn't training with Sky in 2012? He didn't special Kerrison SRM in 2012? It wasn't until 2013 that Kerrison put him on the special "Ride Slow" program?

Yeah, that makes sense

 

[Race Radio]

You may not like my responses but I am providing links etc. as proof.

Do you have a link to your claim that Brailsford named JTL as leader for the worlds team in April 2012?

 

[the sceptic]

So he wasn't training with Sky in 2012? He didn't special Kerrison SRM in 2012? It wasn't until 2013 that Kerrison put him on the special "Ride Slow" program?

Yeah, that makes sense

Maybe instead of trying to bait Hog into getting banned again you could educate us as to what is going on with JTL?

 

[Race Radio]

Maybe instead of trying to bait Hog into getting banned again you could educate us as to what is going on with JTL?

Asking someone to support their claim is not baiting. Hog's endless trolling and baiting is not may fault.

Brailsford naming JTL leader in April would be a big deal as it shows he is more out of touch then we thought, unfortunately Hog provides no evidence to support this claim. Likely it was invented in order to create conflict.

I have addressed JTL several times in this thread

JTL is guilty. Sky know he is guilty. Maybe he gets off on a technicality but I don't see it.

I do not see JTL as a creation of Brailsford but as evidence of his poor management. He signs a guy that most of the sport are rolling their eyes at without doing any testing or due diligence. DB then tries to spin his way out of it, same thing he did with Linders, Barry, Yates, etc. It is ridiculous.

Hog's pretzel logic does not make sense. JTL elevated to a protected rider months before the race. JTL is fast because of SKY's program. JTL is slow because of SKY's program.

The drop off in his performance shortly after he starts getting tested for the BioPassport is rapid. Not being able to run off and spike his Hct prior to a race like he could when he was with Endura is a far more likely explanation.

 

[thehog]

Hog's pretzel logic does not make sense. JTL elevated to a protected rider months before the race. JTL is fast because of SKY's program. JTL is slow because of SKY's program.

The drop off in his performance shortly after he starts getting tested for the BioPassport is rapid. Not being able to run off and spike his Hct prior to a race like he could when he was with Endura is a far more likely explanation.

But his passport testing started in September 2012 not Januaray 2013. Additionally Smith, JTL and Endura asked the UCI and UKADA to be added into the passport long before.

Vaughters also gave JTL the "all clear" from their testing as the real deal.

So we're back to September/October 2012 under Sky; when the actual doping infraction occurred.

I agree with you on Braisford though. He just can't tell it straight.

Smith said that he also approached the UCI in order to seek further tests for Tiernan-Locke. According to Smith, Tiernan-Locke was keen on being added to the UCI’s biological testing programme too.

“I contacted the UCI at that time to see if they would put John onto a passport scheme. That came back as a resounding no,” Smith told Cyclingnews.

Smith then tried to seek testing in the UK but was left empty handed with few facilities able to test his rider to the relevant level needed by the UCI, but he was given a boost when Vaughters got back in contact.

“He was tested by Garmin, we tried to have him tested in this country but it wasn’t feasible because you’d have to get tested in Europe with all the travelling. Endura was prepared to pay for that and John wanted it because he was annoyed with all the rumours.”

“Jonathan Vaughters got in contact and said there were no abnormalities in John’s test and that they’d still like to progress with a possible chat of taking him on. Then Sky approached him and took him to a training camp in Tenerife at the start of May. I am not sure what testing Sky did or when [they] started. No matter what he was still under Endura. Sky looked after him at Worlds then the process started at their off season training camp. What happened during Sky training camps, I don't know. As far as I’m concerned Sky showed all due diligence in looking after him. I think I even sent the results from Jonathan Vaughters’ tests to them. They’ve seen all the data. As far as I’m concerned Jonathan is the real deal. Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with Jonathan.”

http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/former-endura-manager-defends-tiernan-locke

 

[BYOP88]

I'm sure he'll be fine, Sky having done their 'altitude native research' will now do their 'non-altitude native research' and JTL will be cleared and winning races in no time.

 

[deviant]

So Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with JTL.

.....kind of leads back to JTL doing things by himself again doesn't it?!

Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one..... JTL doped to secure the big contract with Sky, then couldn't continue to dope once subject to their internal testing....biopassport then throws up an anomaly.... JTL busted.

 

[thehog]

So Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with JTL.

.....kind of leads back to JTL doing things by himself again doesn't it?!

Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one..... JTL doped to secure the big contract with Sky, then couldn't continue to dope once subject to their internal testing....biopassport then throws up an anomaly.... JTL busted.

Possible and plausible. But he was training with Sky since April and at their camps.

Performed well also during this time; so doping alone in Tenerife whilst the Sky team were doing yoga?

Not likely.

 

[ebandit]

dope

Possible and plausible. But he was training with Sky since April and at their camps.

Performed well also during this time; so doping alone in Tenerife whilst the Sky team were doing yoga?

Not likely.

if this is the case how come only jtl fell foul of the bio passport?

....yoga is cleans..............and jtl was doing something else

Mark L

 

[thehog]

if this is the case how come only jtl fell foul of the bio passport?

....yoga is cleans..............and jtl was doing something else

Mark L

Because not all riders are tested at exactly the same time in the same sequence.

You realise this, yes?

Additionally Froome & Wiggins dropped out of the WC where JTL was tested. I can't tell you if they were tested but judging by Froome's tweet he's currently not being asked to submit samples.

Vaughters tested JTL and gave him the all clear. He's goes to Sky and "bang", doping infraction.

Can't imagine JV hiding information from Sky.

 

[the sceptic]

Asking someone to support their claim is not baiting. Hog's endless trolling and baiting is not may fault.

Brailsford naming JTL leader in April would be a big deal as it shows he is more out of touch then we thought, unfortunately Hog provides no evidence to support this claim. Likely it was invented in order to create conflict.

I have addressed JTL several times in this thread

JTL is guilty. Sky know he is guilty. Maybe he gets off on a technicality but I don't see it.

I do not see JTL as a creation of Brailsford but as evidence of his poor management. He signs a guy that most of the sport are rolling their eyes at without doing any testing or due diligence. DB then tries to spin his way out of it, same thing he did with Linders, Barry, Yates, etc. It is ridiculous.

Hog's pretzel logic does not make sense. JTL elevated to a protected rider months before the race. JTL is fast because of SKY's program. JTL is slow because of SKY's program.

The drop off in his performance shortly after he starts getting tested for the BioPassport is rapid. Not being able to run off and spike his Hct prior to a race like he could when he was with Endura is a far more likely explanation.

I dont think Brailsford is stupid or a bad manager. He knows exactly what he is doing. He just doesnt give a **** if someone is doping or not, the only thing that matters are results and PR.

He wanted to get his hands on JTL, in case he could become the next british GT winner. JTL doesnt work out because he doesnt respond to the marginal gains.

All my opinion of course.

 

[DirtyWorks]

if this is the case how come only jtl fell foul of the bio passport?

It would be an enormous mistake to assume all positives are announced. We don't know how many riders have failed tests over any given time period. We only know what has either gotten leaked, or announced.

We know the UCI has suppressed positives. We know the IOC President has suppressed positives because they happened at their main event.

The Sceptic's post is pretty close to my views.

 

[Catwhoorg]

JV tested JTL once, and IIRC said he kept asking him to come back for a more longitudinal study.

JTL never came back.

That study, would presumably have shown him to be blood doping, and raised the red flags.

(mind you there should have been at least yellow flags flying over his sudden resurgence).

JTL doping on his own to get a big contract fits the evidence the best to my mind.

The fact that he got his contract is cause for concern.

The fact that he is being busted is a cause for celebration.

 

[ebandit]

cool story

It would be an enormous mistake to assume all positives are announced. We don't know how many riders have failed tests over any given time period. We only know what has either gotten leaked, or announced.

We know the UCI has suppressed positives. We know the IOC President has suppressed positives because they happened at their main event.

The Sceptic's post is pretty close to my views.

cool story....so team sky can only afford protection for their a team

Mark L

 

[thehog]

JV tested JTL once, and IIRC said he kept asking him to come back for a more longitudinal study.

JTL never came back.

That study, would presumably have shown him to be blood doping, and raised the red flags.

(mind you there should have been at least yellow flags flying over his sudden resurgence).

JTL doping on his own to get a big contract fits the evidence the best to my mind.

The fact that he got his contract is cause for concern.

The fact that he is being busted is a cause for celebration.

I don't disagree. Garmin would have tested him once maybe a few times. It's performance testing not dope testing and if JTL was going alone he would be smart enough not to dope prior to the tests.

Still he was a Sky boy in all by uniform from April.

I just don't think it's solely and Endura problem as the used car salesman tries to make it out to be.

 

[Race Radio]

So Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with JTL.

.....kind of leads back to JTL doing things by himself again doesn't it?!

Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one..... JTL doped to secure the big contract with Sky, then couldn't continue to dope once subject to their internal testing....biopassport then throws up an anomaly.... JTL busted.

Garmin did not see any irregularity in his blood, but his performance was irregular. Here was a guy lighting up most races he was in but did not test well at all. He was asked to come back but never did. To me that is a red flag. DB ignored this and did not test him.

It seems rather hard to believe that DB would give a little know rider team leadership 6 months prior to the Worlds, get him on the most advanced biopassport beating doping program in the World, only to have him get popped as soon as they start testing him.

 

[thehog]

Garmin did not see any irregularity in his blood, but his performance was irregular. Here was a guy lighting up most races he was in but did not test well at all. He was asked to come back but never did. To me that is a red flag. DB ignored this and did not test him.

It seems rather hard to believe that DB would give a little know rider team leadership 6 months prior to the Worlds, get him on the most advanced biopassport beating doping program in the World, only to have him get popped as soon as they start testing him.

Interesting. Link?

Not sure who's lying but Smith believes Vaughters was about to before Sky trumped in.

Sounds to me Vaughters & Garmin were about to offer, yes?

Do you have a link for your information?

BS: The only blood test while he was riding under Endura colours was when he agreed to go to Jonathan Vaughters [Team Garmin Sharp’s manager – ed.] to get tested. I think it was at the middle of March 2012. That has been documented and there were no irregularities. He [Vaughters] wanted to progress and try to sign him.”

BS: He is only recently on it and we don’t know when he started on it. We don’t know when that blood was taken. But we know that the Garmin test showed no irregularity, and Jonathan Vaughters is happy with the figures that he looked at.

VN: Did Garmin Sharp actually get to the point where they offered a contract?

BS: I think both Garmin and Sky were happy with signing Jon. You would have to speak to his agent [Andrew McQuaid] if there was an offer there [from Garmin]. But I think there was an offer.

VN: His 2013 season was far quieter than his 2012. What do you put that down to?

BS: Obviously Jon was apprehensive going into the best team in the world, Sky. The way Jon works is he cannot be pressured into being doing anything. I know at the training camp [before the Tour of Britain in 2012] that he felt tired and he didn’t want to ride one day. I told Alex San Vega to tell him that he didn’t have to do the efforts that day, but if he didn’t ride that day, he wouldn't do the Tour of Britain. It is a team effort, and that’s all.

He rode that day. I know how Jon his – his head fell off at Castilla y Leon and he didn’t dig in, he just gave up right away. Jon is not a Grand Tour rider…he is a one day rider, or a rider for short stage race. He cannot cope with a lot of workload, he can’t deal with that.

I felt that Sky possibly let him down when it came down to the training…they should have maybe listened to the rider rather than just going by figures.

But he was looking forward to this year. He was over in Majorca recently and showed some very good form and motivation, so this is not timed well for him now.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...i-doping-violation-process.aspx#ixzz332kj2aAU

 

[Race Radio]

Interesting. Link?

Nope......but it would not be the first time an agent told a team (Sky) that another team was about to sign his rider. Drive up the price with false demand