Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[Netserk]

And this is the problem, isn't it? If they were really serious, they'd have every rider tested every day for a month before the GT's.

Yes, it would be expensive, but it would remove all doubt and, given the money these tours make, it would show intent.

It would also make all past doped performances and future ones blindingly obvious.

Lol, how much blood do you want them to lose? You do know a sample requires more than just a couple of drips, right?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I must be missing something? I never see anyone here claim Brits don't dope, yet I see the same few uber-posters constantly making references and wise cracks at the expense of those claiming Brits don't dope... I can't square that circle.

As for Locke, I'm delighted that one more doper has been caught, and may I say two years isn't long enough. This is another victory for the blood passport system which is too heavily criticised on this forum. I think the claims on here that Sky doped him up before signing him fail the credibility and logic tests, but I do think there are questions they should answer to clear things up.

Obviously they didn't have the evidence to discover his past doping when he was signed, however how have their own internal controls not noticed an issue as his career with Sky progressed? (I seem to recall a time period where he was apparently fit, but not being selected, which seemed odd and I did wonder whether Sky had sat him out because they were themselves suspicious based on data they'd gathered. But then he was selected for the 2013 Worlds, only to pull out when the charges were brought, which scuppers that possibility). And I've heard Brailsford say changes have been made to try and avoid this situation happening in future. Great, but for a team that are so vocally anti doping, why so often do they seem to be reactive rather than proactive?

To your first point - it is less so now, but certainly for a while at first back in 2011-12 there were some posters who would at least heavily imply a stronger sense of morals and a greater moral outrage amongst northern Europeans and Anglo cultures as opposed to Spain, Italy etc.. This was brought up as a crutch a few times, including by professionals, which was particularly difficult to stomach. One of Wiggins' reasons he gave for why he wouldn't dope was because it would be bad for him if he got caught, as if it wouldn't be bad for anybody else - as if Spain's Carlos Barredo, who was hounded out of the péloton and got a job as a barista, doesn't regret it, or as if Italy's Mauro Santambrogio hasn't felt on the edge of despair since his positive test. It has been felt at many times, rightly or wrongly, that posters defending Sky are Britons who want to believe that their guys are doing it the right way, to the point where they will wilfully close their ears to things they don't want to hear. The "Brits don't dope" arguments that have been long since debunked have become used as a stick to beat Sky supporters with long after their usefulness as a defence of the team has worn out.

As for the biopassport - it gets a bit of stick on here because it seems to be being used as a way of moderating doping rather than preventing it; you shouldn't be able to go Pantani-speed anymore, and super-peaking à la Lance shouldn't be possible as you need to ensure levels are consistent. However, we've seen Lance's 2009 values and Horner's biopassport which show clear spikes and troughs that are suspicious even to the untrained eye, and we know that no biopassport case was raised against either, which makes us think, how ridiculous does one's biopassport have to be in order to trip the wire? I'd also point out, the UCI has actually nailed some pretty big fish on the biopassport - Pellizotti, Menchov, Kreuziger - and right now they should be shouting from the rooftops about its effectiveness, having busted two big names (the latter two) and a number of other notable riders (Barredo, Hoste, Tiernan-Locke). But they haven't. They've been quietly updating their pdfs and hiding from the world the successes of the biological passport. So we get to see who isn't being busted, but they quietly jettison people under cover of night when they actually do bust them, and wonder why we're skeptical of the effectiveness of it.

The bolded sentence is very interesting and you have a very good point. When the Team was set up, it was all zero tolerance and science. I feel like they're giving themselves the rope they need to hang themselves with - just like with the Attention To Detail, no stone left unturned policy that apparently explained why they were so successful, yet they were unable to find out information in the public domain about Leinders, Rogers or Barry, or to read the roadbook closely enough to recognise there was an uncategorised hill on the run-in in País Vasco 2012 and toasted all their puncheurs trying to lead out a sprint, were about to drop the contract of a man who is apparently the greatest natural talent since Merckx and weren't able to ascertain with Tiernan-Locke that they'd bought a dud. They seem to sign people now and worry about their past later - which can hardly be considered due diligence for a team that professes a zero tolerance approach on doping. Instead, it turns out that they'll sign you and if anything comes out, you're on your own. How does that make them different from Катюша, Lampre or Movistar exactly?

 

[noddy69]

I suppose I have to ask....is there a chance the reason the UCI has gone silently about letting people know who has been banned without any bells and whistles attached maybe because they expect to catch a high number of people over the coming months and could do without having to publicise it everytime they come to a decision ?.......exhale.......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I suppose I have to ask....is there a chance the reason the UCI has gone silently about letting people know who has been banned without any bells and whistles attached maybe because they expect to catch a high number of people over the coming months and could do without having to publicise it everytime they come to a decision ?.......exhale.......

Possibly. However the negativity associated with the silent release of rider suspensions is far outweighing any potential savings now that the process has been revealed. You can bet people will be loading that page every day and scooping new entries.

ie they are failing badly at keeping things on the down low.

 

[noddy69]

Possibly. However the negativity associated with the silent release of rider suspensions is far outweighing any potential savings now that the process has been revealed. You can bet people will be loading that page every day and scooping new entries.

ie they are failing badly at keeping things on the down low.

I suppose I mean rather than trumpeting the ones they do catch as proof they combat doping, they are preparing to catch more without the fanfare and press releases that they are great. Probably wishful thinking but a possibility.

 

[zigmeister]

BradCantona^ the biopassport doesn't prove anything. It doesn't actually catch anybody doping. So not sure how this is some victory.

Wouldn't you like to actually know what somebody is using instead of some mystery parameters that might have fallen out of range they have decided determine that gives the "impression" somebody is using a PED of some sort?

I don't call it victory personally. But maybe my idea of what catching a doper is compared to others is different.

Like Lance...they didn't catch him doing anything 99.9999% of the time, only a TUE backdated and the supposed EPO cover up which is all hearsay.

Otherwise, Lance never tested positive his entire career and during his victories. Only Floyd/Betsy and a few finally got him to admit what he did.

So biopassport, isn't any different.

 

[del1962]

BradCantona^ the biopassport doesn't prove anything. It doesn't actually catch anybody doping. So not sure how this is some victory.

Wouldn't you like to actually know what somebody is using instead of some mystery parameters that might have fallen out of range they have decided determine that gives the "impression" somebody is using a PED of some sort?

I don't call it victory personally. But maybe my idea of what catching a doper is compared to others is different.

Like Lance...they didn't catch him doing anything 99.9999% of the time, only a TUE backdated and the supposed EPO cover up which is all hearsay.

Otherwise, Lance never tested positive his entire career and during his victories. Only Floyd/Betsy and a few finally got him to admit what he did.

So biopassport, isn't any different.

Hmm

JTL, Menchov, Barredo, Kreuziger

 

[thehog]

Hmm

JTL, Menchov, Barredo, Kreuziger

It caught Menchov getting 51st at the Tour not winning the Giro.

So not sure it's very effective.

 

[the sceptic]

It caught Menchov getting 51st at the Tour not winning the Giro.

So not sure it's very effective.

Its funny how when the bio passport catches the likes of Menvhov it shows that the system works and its a new clean era. But when JTL gets busted we cant be sure he was doping.

 

[ebandit]

really?

Its funny how when the bio passport catches the likes of Menvhov it shows that the system works and its a new clean era. But when JTL gets busted we cant be sure he was doping.

really? I'm sure JTL was doping

the funny thing is not the obvious but members desperation to try and blame team sky ( despite no results with them )

Mark L

 

[DirtyWorks]

really? I'm sure JTL was doping

the funny thing is not the obvious but members desperation to try and blame team sky ( despite no results with them )

Mark L

Who is desperate? The facts are clear he was training with Sky and transitioning to Sky while under contract with the continental squad.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Its funny how when the bio passport catches the likes of Menvhov it shows that the system works and its a new clean era. But when JTL gets busted we cant be sure he was doping.

I didn't read the comment like that. I read it as they mysteriously cannot detect irregular values for podium winners, but get 51st and they'll find you.

That is about right for the UCI. Get on the podium and apparently irregular values are of no interest to the federation. 2nd-3rd tier Continental pro who struggles, or way out of contention WT riders seem to be caught with great frequency.

 

[thehog]

Who is desperate? The facts are clear he was training with Sky and transitioning to Sky while under contract with the continental squad.

Correct. And his indiscretion is from that period along with riding for BC doped. Proven by the UCI anti-doping authorities.

 

[neineinei]

I suppose I have to ask....is there a chance the reason the UCI has gone silently about letting people know who has been banned without any bells and whistles attached maybe because they expect to catch a high number of people over the coming months and could do without having to publicise it everytime they come to a decision ?.......exhale.......

IAAF has adopted a similar way of doing it this year, it seems. The difference is that they tell us in their monthly newsletter where to look for it. Up until February they printed a list of athletes sanctioned for a doping offence since the last newsletter (the January issue is four pages long, the list takes two and a half of them.) In the March issue it just says "An up-to-date list can be downloaded here". The IAAF list of currently sanctioned athletes is VERY long, navigating it and finding out which are new additions is not easy.

Even if there was a fairly big stink when the press uncovered this new way of "communicating" (right after Libertine Seguros post about sanctions never heard about before, in this very Forum), there has been very little attention given to the other new sanctions in the pdf file, only Menchovs. Dopeology.org, for instance, hasn't updated Barredo's page. On the other hand the addition of JTL sanction in that pdf file was picked up at once. Now everybody knows where to look, and UCI doesn't get to control the message.

 

[Benotti69]

Vaughters doing his bit for anti-doping APU.....

Leigh Thompson ‏@Leigh_DT

@SSbike Recall reading that Brian Smith said he'd sent Garmin test data to Sky prior to JTL signing. Be interesting to know if they had it..

Shane Stokes @SSbike

@Leigh_DT I asked JV if he could comment on what testing had been done/would be done. No answer to call or email.

 

[thehog]

Vaughters doing his bit for anti-doping APU.....

A lot of conflicting information on this story.

Smith believes:

“Jonathan Vaughters got in contact and said there were no abnormalities in John’s test and that they’d still like to progress with a possible chat of taking him on. Then Sky approached him and took him to a training camp in Tenerife at the start of May. I am not sure what testing Sky did or when [they] started. No matter what he was still under Endura. Sky looked after him at Worlds then the process started at their off season training camp. What happened during Sky training camps, I don't know. As far as I’m concerned Sky showed all due diligence in looking after him. I think I even sent the results from Jonathan Vaughters’ tests to them. They’ve seen all the data. As far as I’m concerned Jonathan is the real deal. Sky, Garmin and Endura all thought there were no irregularities with Jonathan.”

Although Team Sky have been linked with Jon Tiernan-Locke before, both at the end of last season and again at the start of this year following JTL's fantastic results in the Tour Mediterraneen, Tour du Haut Var and Vuelta a Murcia, Brian insists that his block of training in Tenerife has nothing to do with a possible move to Sky for 2013.

''Jon was sick at Bartoli, I have friends at Sky and it made sense for him to recover and do a good block of training in the mountains with some good weather. I would not read too much into who he was with in Tenerife.'' he went on to say ''He is still committed to Endura and I will use my friends to help him. He will make decisions on 2013 later in the year.''

It is likely that many will draw their own conclusions from this, however I'm pretty certain that Brian has used Tenerife purely to benefit his rider's performance ahead of the Vuelta a Castilla y Leon and any Input from Team Sky and their extensive set-up would obviously be a massive benefit to a Continental rider like Jon Tiernan-Locke in preparation for more gruelling stage races and this in itself would not be uncommon as Brian Smith is eager to point out.

''I have friends at many WorldTour teams. We used another team for blood test facilities. Lotto (Belisol) have helped us (Endura) with 25mm tubs recently. It's nice to see WorldTour teams prepared to help and have relationships with some of the smaller teams.''

 

[nevada]

Rob Hayles was on Endura . He was suspended from the track for having hct over 50% and withdrawn from competition.

 

[Froomster]

Lol, how much blood do you want them to lose? You do know a sample requires more than just a couple of drips, right?

LOL right back at you. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about:

During the blood collection process, less than one tablespoon of blood will be drawn and the amount of blood should not affect an athlete’s performance.
http://www.usada.org/testing/sample-collection-process/blood/#tab-1393456224289-4-4

 

[SundayRider]

I didn't read the comment like that. I read it as they mysteriously cannot detect irregular values for podium winners, but get 51st and they'll find you.

That is about right for the UCI. Get on the podium and apparently irregular values are of no interest to the federation. 2nd-3rd tier Continental pro who struggles, or way out of contention WT riders seem to be caught with great frequency.

Maybe the day when Froome finishes 51st at a GT, something might happen?

 

[del1962]

I didn't read the comment like that. I read it as they mysteriously cannot detect irregular values for podium winners, but get 51st and they'll find you.

That is about right for the UCI. Get on the podium and apparently irregular values are of no interest to the federation. 2nd-3rd tier Continental pro who struggles, or way out of contention WT riders seem to be caught with great frequency.

Disangenous comment as Menchov was stripped of podium places aswell

 

[ebandit]

cherry on top

Who is desperate? The facts are clear he was training with Sky and transitioning to Sky while under contract with the continental squad.

you and I know the score................even yourself appear to be looking to

blame team sky...........cherry picking points to suit you narrative rather

than accepting the obvious...............JTL was an endura rider who had

trained from time to time with team sky prior to becoming a team sky

rider

Mark L

 

[Benotti69]

you and I know the score................even yourself appear to be looking to

blame team sky...........cherry picking points to suit you narrative rather

than accepting the obvious...............JTL was an endura rider who had

trained from time to time with team sky prior to becoming a team sky

rider

Mark L

Outing yourself as a Sky fan?

Trained from time to time? I think it may have been the same as if he was a full time Sky rider.

Sky had the Garmin testing Data and then had JTL for how long and did not raise any issues about his form and then Pat McQuaid's last passing shot was to start an AAF into JTL's ABP. Dont just love this sport. Pass the doping buck as far from you as you possibly can.

 

[thehog]

Outing yourself as a Sky fan?

Trained from time to time? I think it may have been the same as if he was a full time Sky rider.

Sky had the Garmin testing Data and then had JTL for how long and did not raise any issues about his form and then Pat McQuaid's last passing shot was to start an AAF into JTL's ABP. Dont just love this sport. Pass the doping buck as far from you as you possibly can.

This is what JTL was wearing when he they discovered his passport irregularities.

He looks like a Sky rider with his Sky coloured powermeter. Time to time certainly doesn't cut it.

 

[the sceptic]

you and I know the score................even yourself appear to be looking to

blame team sky...........cherry picking points to suit you narrative rather

than accepting the obvious...............JTL was an endura rider who had

trained from time to time with team sky prior to becoming a team sky

rider

Mark L

And you look to fit everything into the narrative that sky are cleans and have never done anything wrong.

JTL doped. He is british. And he rode for sky. It is most worrying.

 

[ebandit]

worrying

And you look to fit everything into the narrative that sky are cleans and have never done anything wrong.

JTL doped. He is british. And he rode for sky. It is most worrying.

of course it is worrying when a rider is found to be doping...........but seeing

a cheater outed is still reson for cheer

but as you must be aware problem resulting with ban was when JTL was an

endura rider and pic of JTL with sky on jersey is because sky also sponsor

BC

rather worrying that this has been stated so often but still you persist

Mark L