Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[King Boonen]

So that's a yes then.

No, it is not a forum estimate. It is a perfectly legitimate calculation recognised the world over and not some random calculation invented by people in the clinic.

It's the same calculation used by Abbott's i-STAT.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No, it is not a forum estimate. It is a perfectly legitimate calculation recognised the world over and not some random calculation invented by people in the clinic.

It's the same calculation used by Abbott's i-STAT.

When I was reading about this, I read one hospital-focused text that said if the detected value was outside 3x +/- 3 they ordered new tests coz something was potentially really, really wrong.

ie 14 x 3 +/- 3 = 39 - 45. 38 or 46 meant retests.

 

[King Boonen]

That's very possible, especially as hospitals tend to be a bit lax when it comes to instrument calibration.

In terms of this conversation it seems fairly obvious Parker just wanted to dismiss the value as random clinic speculation as it probably doesn't agree with his narrative. It's not speculation and he can't.

 

[Parker]

That's very possible, especially as hospitals tend to be a bit lax when it comes to instrument calibration.

In terms of this conversation it seems fairly obvious Parker just wanted to dismiss the value as random clinic speculation as it probably doesn't agree with his narrative. It's not speculation and he can't.

No narrative or dismissal. It's just that when thehog ignores all of the stated facts in the UKAD report, it's ironic that he uses one that relies on a rule of thumb.

He may well have had a 54% HCT. If so it is astonishing that Sky, who according to thehog and many others here, were running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling, doped him up worse than an amateur doing a Gran Fondo.

The desperation to lay this at Sky's door by thehog is ridiculous and really quite pitiful.

 

[thehog]

No narrative or dismissal. It's just that when thehog ignores all of the stated facts in the UKAD report, it's ironic that he uses one that relies on a rule of thumb.

He may well have had a 54% HCT. If so it is astonishing that Sky, who according to thehog and many others here, were running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling, doped him up worse than an amateur doing a Gran Fondo.

The desperation to lay this at Sky's door by thehog is ridiculous and really quite pitiful.

In this narrative of yours, having HCT at 54% is not sophisticated? That's what amateurs do in Gran Fondo's?

Because JTL at the ToB was urine tested and they found nothing. The UKAD in their wisdom thought best not to test for EPO in a one week stage race (golly gee, why is that?)

What you're really saying is he's an idoit for getting caught. And because he got caught then he can't be on a Sky program because Sky riders don't test positive? They have protection.

He got caught because at the Worlds he was blood tested and Sky took their own blood test two days after the UCI test. The first blood test records record values. The Sky test two days later after riding 260km and flying still holds high values. Sky kept him on and not only trained him when he was still Endura but Kerrison had already put him on the GT training program.

Your story has a hell of a disconnect. Skys actions are one of a team more concerned in the result than the rider.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wait what. This only just occurred to me. What the hell do they test for if not EPO in a urine sample?

Testosterone?
Steroids in general?
Cortisone?

 

[thehog]

Wait what. This only just occurred to me. What the hell do they test for if not EPO in a urine sample?

Testosterone?
Steroids in general?
Cortisone?

They screen test and that's about it. No one was going to test positive in that race. The only reason JTL got triangulated was because he was blood profiled unexpectedly. Nobody accounted for the first value.

Brailsford mistake wasn't hiring JTL it was forgetting or not knowing to account for data point 1 which he had courtesy of their own testing.

 

[Kicker661]

Wait what. This only just occurred to me. What the hell do they test for if not EPO in a urine sample?

Testosterone?
Steroids in general?
Cortisone?

Yes. Possibly broad recreational/amphetamines.

Blanket tests cover a range of things and is cheap which is what businesses run for employees as it will catch the mainstream stuff.

It becomes REAL expensive REAL fast when you want to target specific things as you are taking a massive dollar punt assuming you will get a positive somewhere.

 

[thehog]

Yes. Possibly broad recreational/amphetamines.

Blanket tests cover a range of things and is cheap which is what businesses run for employees as it will catch the mainstream stuff.

It becomes REAL expensive REAL fast when you want to target specific things as you are taking a massive dollar punt assuming you will get a positive somewhere.

That's what the screening does. Then they go further it they see anything interesting. But they basically run out or p-ss to perform anymore testing.

So they just screen and test for anything obvious if they get the blue dye to go red.

EPO tests are much more specific. So they like to keep a lot p-ss for those ones, as on occasions they've been known to give it two or three rounds to get the desired result - see Mayo.

But you just can't test for everything. It's not possible and there appears widespread avoidance by the UCI to test for EPO OOC and in GTs. Noted by WADA.

 

[Kicker661]

That's what the screening does. Then they go further it they see anything interesting. But they basically run out or p-ss to perform anymore testing.

So they just screen and test for anything obvious if they get the blue dye to go red.

That's what i had posted. The first test is a blanket screen. However the next test you need to specify the exact compound you are targeting. So you test for EPO. You test for Trenbolone etc.

That's where it gets hellishly expensive because your first screen will give a pos for a certain family of products. You then specificy the exact compound in that family that you want to test for which gives the absolute positive.

That is why people get done for the most basic compounds from 50yrs ago rather than the tricky stuff that makes up the 10ft list of things they are taking. They won't test for tricky stuff because it might mean choosing 1 of 100 compounds within a family.

At least that's my real world experience when dealing with lab tests (as a customer).

 

[DirtyWorks]

That's what i had posted. The first test is a blanket screen. However the next test you need to specify the exact compound you are targeting. So you test for EPO. You test for Trenbolone etc.

That's where it gets hellishly expensive because your first screen will give a pos for a certain family of products. You then specificy the exact compound in that family that you want to test for which gives the absolute positive.

That is why people get done for the most basic compounds from 50yrs ago rather than the tricky stuff that makes up the 10ft list of things they are taking. They won't test for tricky stuff because it might mean choosing 1 of 100 compounds within a family.

At least that's my real world experience when dealing with lab tests (as a customer).

Listen to Kicker boys and girls. What gets you into current trouble is failing the IQ test. See Chris Horner and maybe Menchov for how to do it right.

One of the cool loopholes built into the WADA standard is you don't know what tests are being ordered. You know the anti-doping authority orders and pays for tests. What tests? It's a secret. Why? Never test positive.

 

[TheSpud]

No narrative or dismissal. It's just that when thehog ignores all of the stated facts in the UKAD report, it's ironic that he uses one that relies on a rule of thumb.

He may well have had a 54% HCT. If so it is astonishing that Sky, who according to thehog and many others here, were running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling, doped him up worse than an amateur doing a Gran Fondo.

The desperation to lay this at Sky's door by thehog is ridiculous and really quite pitiful.

Lets not forget the 11 days at the Endura altitude camp in late August. And we all know what altitude camps can be used for ...

And just to reiterate who's camp that was - Endura.

Quick question - JTL was out of contract at the end of that season right? Or did he have be bought out?

 

[Kicker661]

He may well have had a 54% HCT. If so it is astonishing that Sky, who according to thehog and many others here, were running the most sophisticated doping program in cycling, doped him up worse than an amateur doing a Gran Fondo.

The desperation to lay this at Sky's door

Yep, just go with the simplest explanation for this one.

If you are on the team program, no one goes positive.

The guy wanted a big contract but couldn't afford a proper program and messed up along the way.

 

[SundayRider]

Still find it hard to believe his HCT was somewhere in the region of 54%! Doping like it's 1999.

 

[nomapnocompass]

JTL was doping without the expertise to back him up and manage his dosages within the limits of the ABP. This was the result.

 

[SundayRider]

JTL was doping without the expertise to back him up and manage his dosages within the limits of the ABP. This was the result.

Even Tyler in the Secret Race got ridiculed by Lance for going to clsoe to 50% on time.

 

[fmk_RoI]

The rest of the country probably doesn't know who the hell JTL is, let alone care about what he's done, but at least the pom-pom waving ra-ra-skirted local press still believes in their own Boy Wonder:

UKAD think it is “inconceivable” that Tiernan-Locke wouldn’t have poured water down himself between his night-out and his crucial blood-test, thereby rehydrating and restoring his blood count to more normal levels.

That’s their opinion. It’s not proven fact.

[...]

EPO or ‘blood doping’ was way beyond his financial means at the time. And his Endura Racing team manager Brian Smith has always insisted that there is no way that Tiernan-Locke ‘cheated’ under his care.

No one had ever accused him of that, EPO has never been found in his system and he has never failed any drug test.

[...]

Let’s face it, if this case were to go before a court of law, it would be thrown out faster than a Mark Cavendish sprint.

link

 

[SundayRider]

The rest of the country probably doesn't know who the hell JTL is, let alone care about what he's done, but at least the pom-pom waving ra-ra-skirted local press still believes in their own Boy Wonder:

That article is so biased it is untrue. I think it is telling that JTL hasn't said 'I'm a clean rider', 'I've never doped'. All he said is it would cost so much to prove his innocence and the fact that he would likely be found guilty again.

 

[gillan1969]

No, his Worlds result was annulled as he was still showing the effects of doping.

He doped to win the Tour of Britain and sew up his Sky contract. If he was intending to dope at the Worlds too then why did he go out drinking a few days before (again the report suggests that there is evidence that this actually happened).

are you being serious? he didn't...its an excuse,...the corroboration is his girlf...you know a guy called Chris Hume yeah?

I tell you what...you go out and drink 33 units...then don't drink anything for 36 hours an than go and try your local 100 mile circuit...in fact make it 150 miles and go faster than you've ever gone for your 100 miler.....

 

[Parker]

are you being serious? he didn't...its an excuse,...the corroboration is his girlf...you know a guy called Chris Hume yeah?

I tell you what...you go out and drink 33 units...then don't drink anything for 36 hours an than go and try your local 100 mile circuit...in fact make it 150 miles and go faster than you've ever gone for your 100 miler.....

The UKAD report suggests that there is sufficient evidence that he went out that night. Not how much he drank or whether he drank water afterwards (I doubt those bits every bit as much as you do).

UKAD, who had all the evidence to hand, took the 'excuse' seriously enough to analyse it in full - so I reckon he actually went out drinking in some capacity.

They also concluded that he doped. Around the end of August. Which suggests that the target for his doping was the Tour of the Britain and the effects lasting through to the Worlds was just a bonus.

 

[TheSpud]

Still find it hard to believe his HCT was somewhere in the region of 54%! Doping like it's 1999.

He must have been glowing like the readybrek kid!

 

[TheSpud]

"EPO was never found in his system"

It wont be if you don't test for it ...

 

[TheSpud]

are you being serious? he didn't...its an excuse,...the corroboration is his girlf...you know a guy called Chris Hume yeah?

I tell you what...you go out and drink 33 units...then don't drink anything for 36 hours an than go and try your local 100 mile circuit...in fact make it 150 miles and go faster than you've ever gone for your 100 miler.....

33 units is about 50% more than the recommend weekly level for an adult in the UK. He said he doesn't drink very often - he must have been in some state after that lot. I find it inconceivable that he didn't drink any water or anything the next day, after all he's a pro athlete who knows most than most about the pitfalls of being dehydrated.

 

[thehog]

Still find it hard to believe his HCT was somewhere in the region of 54%! Doping like it's 1999.

Indeed it was. To ride like that you must feel fairly confident you won't get caught. Sailed through the ToB and Worlds without a positive test.

Especially after having his blood tested by Sky the day after and they were piano tranquillo about the values.

Just like 1999

 

[gillan1969]

The UKAD report suggests that there is sufficient evidence that he went out that night. Not how much he drank or whether he drank water afterwards.

UKAD, who had all the evidence to hand, took the 'excuse' seriously enough to analyse it in full - so I reckon he actually went out drinking in some capacity.

They also concluded that he doped. Around the end of August. Which suggests that the target for his doping was the Tour of the Britain and the effects lasting through to the Worlds was just a bonus.

the evidence is his girlfriend and....eh...that's it

his performance at the worlds was better than his performance at the ToB....you can deduce from that what you will

you seem to be willfully trying, like Sir Dave, to make this an Endura problem.

This is a BC and SKY problem...btw the BC statement on their website is comedy...it was as if they had no responsibility at all for their team leader in the biggest one day race in the world