Jumbo - QuickStep merger

[Salvarani]

yeah we get you still believe Jumbo operates under a 20M budget, they do not. No one actually believes this apart from Dutch Jumbo fans. Not a single rider in the peloton believes, not a single other team (they also simply know), and not a single non-Dutch fan. It is impossible to have the talent they have and keep them with their so called mid tier budget. So either Jumbo pays more than that or the non-name sponsors are massively overpaying them.

If they were just trying to find a sponsor for 10M they would not have a single problem finding one.

And no, I'm not gonna get into this discussion again. Believe what you want. Jumbo Visma is a miracle team that can get away with underpaying every single rider they have, for some reason get free altitude camps, free ketones, free whatever other shiit they use, etc. Cause there's no way in hell they pay all that stuff with the budget you or Plugge claim they have.

The power of love can't be quantified.

 

[pastronef]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1706628868633759904

View: https://www.twitter.com/Domestique___/status/1706628868633759904

 

[theyoungest]

yeah we get you still believe Jumbo operates under a 20M budget, they do not. No one actually believes this apart from Dutch Jumbo fans. Not a single rider in the peloton believes, not a single other team (they also simply know), and not a single non-Dutch fan. It is impossible to have the talent they have and keep them with their so called mid tier budget. So either Jumbo pays more than that or the non-name sponsors are massively overpaying them.

If they were just trying to find a sponsor for 10M they would not have a single problem finding one.

And no, I'm not gonna get into this discussion again. Believe what you want. Jumbo Visma is a miracle team that can get away with underpaying every single rider they have, for some reason get free altitude camps, free ketones, free whatever other shiit they use, etc. Cause there's no way in hell they pay all that stuff with the budget you or Plugge claim they have.

You do understand that Jumbo is not the only sponsor they have? I'm not saying the total budget of the team is 10 million, I'm saying that the amount Jumbo contributed is 10 million. This has nothing to do with being Dutch, although maybe being a little better informed about the team does help.

And yes, it's worrying that they apparently can't even find a sponsor in this range. But that doesn't change the facts that it's actually not that much.

edit: I've looked it up for you, newspaper Volkskrant (not exactly fanboys of the team, given that this is the paper that brought down their predecessor Rabobank) mentions an amount of 12 million. For the whole organisation, so that's including speedskating (men/women), a women's cycling team and a development team. I'd say 10 million for the men's pro team is not too far off the mark.

Te koop voor 12 miljoen een divers, internationaal en succesvol sportbedrijf

Met het aanstaande vertrek van supermarktketen Jumbo als sponsor bij de gelijknamige wieler- en schaatsploeg komt de vraag op: wie duikt er in dat ...

www.volkskrant.nl

 

[theyoungest]

The power of love can't be quantified.

The power of ignorance, you mean?

 

[Salvarani]

The power of ignorance, you mean?

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

The power of love can't be quantified.

Well it is a curious thing. Makes Jonas weap and Laporte a king.

 

[shadowrider]

Haha, well it's clear you're very fond of the Dutch people at least

There's usually a much stronger anti-Dutch sentiment among Flemish people, than the other way around. But perhaps unwittingly you've indicated another reason why this merger is never going to work: it's already a little too much to handle for most Belgians that Van Aert is on a Dutch team. Now Evenepoel as well?

Yeah, I think so too.

Because if Soudal-Quickstep cease to exist, WT-license is auctioned/sold/given to another team, all the contracts are basically worth nothing. They also cease to exist with the team/company. Have I understood it right?

If above checks out... I think the only hold up is the negotiation with Remco then. They are trying to convince him to agree to join the Soudal - Visma team for the next few years and sign with them.

The rest of the current Soudal - Quickstep riders will go out on the free market, maybe Remco can bring one or two with him but thats it.

You are completely wright. Evenepoel is free to leave when there is a merge. Bakala and Lefevere want to sell the license of the actual Soudal-Quickstepteam . As a result Evenepoel could negotiate a fantastic contract with INEOS. But he could also stay with the merge team (within the merge team, contracts of the previous team are still valid). But of course, because Evenepoel is also free to leave, he will not stay in the merge team with the old (same) financial conditions. Evenepoel has all the cards in hands. To negociate a monster contract with the merge team. And if not..... is he going to INEOS. Of course, there is not only the money, but also (even more) the sporty side. Evenepoel will function better in the INEOS-team. Being the only leader. Thomas is to old, Pidcock is just one level lower and Bernal will never regain his old level). In the merge team he would have to challenge Vingegaard (Roglic probably will leave to have a last chance to win the Tour). I don't think Evenepoel wants to be in the same team of Vingegaard, Kuss, Van Aert.

 

[Aimar16]

You are completely wright. Evenepoel is free to leave when there is a merge. Bakala and Lefevere want to sell the license of the actual Soudal-Quickstepteam . As a result Evenepoel could negotiate a fantastic contract with INEOS. But he could also stay with the merge team (within the merge team, contracts of the previous team are still valid). But of course, because Evenepoel is also free to leave, he will not stay in the merge team with the old (same) financial conditions. Evenepoel has all the cards in hands. To negociate a monster contract with the merge team. And if not..... is he going to INEOS. Of course, there is not only the money, but also (even more) the sporty side. Evenepoel will function better in the INEOS-team. Being the only leader. Thomas is to old, Pidcock is just one level lower and Bernal will never regain his old level). In the merge team he would have to challenge Vingegaard (Roglic probably will leave to have a last chance to win the Tour). I don't think Evenepoel wants to be in the same team of Vingegaard, Kuss, Van Aert.

I doubt INEOS will sign anyone for big money while its oligarch owner is still dreaming of buying Man Utd - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...united-bid-to-revive-takeover-hopes#xj4y7vzkg

 

[shadowrider]

Lets not forget Rogla is still a mere papa and not yet a grandpa. Long way to go.

During the last Giro (only able to beat the old Thomas with a few seconds), but also during the Vuelta, we could see that Roglic is still good, but not the Roglic of a few years ago. I don't think Roglic (more than 34 in 2024) will be able to beat Pogacar, Vingegaard, even Evenepoel in the Tour 2024. Not as a rider of Jumbo-Visma, not as a rider of the merge team, but also not as the leader of Lidl or another team.

 

[CyclistAbi]

During the last Giro (only able to beat the old Thomas with a few seconds), but also during the Vuelta, we could see that Roglic is still good, but not the Roglic of a few years ago. I don't think Roglic (more than 34 in 2024) will be able to beat Pogacar, Vingegaard, even Evenepoel in the Tour 2024. Not as a rider of Jumbo-Visma, not as a rider of the merge team, but also not as the leader of Lidl or another team.

But wasn't it said last year that Rogla will stand no chance against Remco this season? So i guess best to take such predictions with a grain of salt. And to leave such decisions to the road. For years to come.

 

[shadowrider]

For QS: Bakala and Lefevre want a way out.
For Jumbo: Securing Soudal as a sponsor.

OK, but Soudal replacing Jumbo is financial not enough for the team.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Kuss is El Patron, for making Rogla and Jonas ride for him on a GT. Remco won't have it. SOQ and JV to merge and all three to ride for Remco.

Now that is a proper El Patron.

 

[Berniece]

There is a difference between not being able to find a sponsor in general and not being able to find a sponsor that gives you 20M euros a year. Of course they could find a regular sponsor, one that can replace Jumbo, but they're (probably) struggling to find a sponsor that pays enough money so that they can battle with UAE budget wise (which is impossible anyways cause they will just drop another 10 or 20M if needed). Western companies that can pay that kind of money must be huge and they often do not care about cycling or simply don't need the exposure, they already have the brand recognition that cycling can give them.

For example. It never was a problem for Lotto, a team that was complete utter shiit, to replace Soudal, cause Soudal only payed between 7 and 8M. Dstny now too. There's plenty of businesses that would want to pay that kind of money cause it's worth the exposure for a company that could use some brand recognition in Europe.

The problem isn't "survival" like media or Jumbo themselves make it seems, it's trying to find sponsors so that they can get an even bigger budget than they already have and can battle with UAE, which is like I said impossible anyways.

I think the problem lies in that a team is mostly solely dependable on sponsors. The income of a team is 90% from sponsors and deals, there are barely any other proper revenue streams. That's why the business model is so ***, the market has to grow organically.

 

[shadowrider]

There was an interesting quote on Wielerflits about the problems of cycling sponsorship:

"In 2017 I visited Floris Weisz at IMG's Asian headquarters in Singapore. He negotiates daily for worldwide TV rights for various major sports. Weisz emphasized that, globally, cycling is no bigger than handball and judo. Outside of nine European countries, only Australia, Japan, Colombia and to a lesser extent the United States are interested."

I think cycling fans probably overestimate how big the sport actually is. If I look at my own country, the Netherlands where it's supposedly the biggest sport (according to Tim Cook ), viewing numbers for cycling are actually quite low. And it's also never trending on Youtube or other social media, whereas football or Formula 1 are, constantly. Young people, and certainly minorities, don't care about cycling. They'll have vaguely heard there's a Dutch team that's doing quite well right now, but that's all they'll know about it.

Because the Netherlands have only one good, even toprider, VDP. The fact that Jumbo-Visma is a Dutch team (why, because of the Dutch license, the Dutch sponsor Jumbo, only till 2024 ?) should of course not enthuse the Dutch people.

 

[HelloDolly]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Pogacar against the world at the Tour

 

[shadowrider]

But wasn't it said last year that Rogla will stand no chance against Remco this season? So i guess best to take such predictions with a grain of salt. And to leave such decisions to the road. For years to come.

In the Giro, Roglic would't have beaten Evenepoel. No way. He was only able to win after the Covid-disease of Evenepoel and against the very old Thomas..... with a few seconds. We will never known what Evenepoel was able to during the Vuelta, after been confronted with the monstercoalition Vingegaard, Roglic, Kuss. And after a dubious breakdown. At the end, Roglic was only third (coming to the vuelta to win). No way Roglic could win the Tour 2024 only by taking a few seconds and boniseconds by sprinting uphill 200 m.

 

[roundabout]

I think the problem lies in that a team is mostly solely dependable on sponsors. The income of a team is 90% from sponsors and deals, there are barely any other proper revenue streams. That's why the business model is so ***, the market has to grow organically.

I am guessing based on the available public data that ASO profit is about 50M EUR tops. Even if they disburse 50% of that to teams it would still be about 1M per team on average.

I actually have no idea what the average WT team budget is these days, but I am guessing 15M maybe? Even if it is not 15, but 10 it is still like ASOx10 to be fully sustainable from the sport revenues.

Honestly, the money is not there. As harsh as it sounds for the people involved, Jumbo team sponsorship issues is also an organic correction of budgets to a more sustainable level reflective of actual money in the sport.

 

[shadowrider]

Due to the leak (coming from the staff of Jumbo, or coming from te team of Lefevere ?), it seems almost impossible there will be a merge team in 2024. Or even in 2025. Well, not in the form presented today. To many riders of both teams, staff as well, are against it.

 

[HelloDolly]

In the Giro, Roglic would't have beaten Evenepoel. No way. He was only able to win after the Covid-disease of Evenepoel and against the very old Thomas..... with a few seconds. We will never known what Evenepoel was able to during the Vuelta, after been confronted with the monstercoalition Vingegaard, Roglic, Kuss. And after a dubious breakdown. At the end, Roglic was only third (coming to the vuelta to win). No way Roglic could win the Tour 2024 only by taking a few seconds and boniseconds by sprinting uphill 200 m.

This again

He would have won but there was an 'r' in the month logic

He didnt win

 

[shadowrider]

This again

He would ahve won but there was an 'r' in the month logic

He didnt win

Yes, Roglic didn't win the Vuelta 2023. And will not win the Tour 2024.

 

[theyoungest]

In the Giro, Roglic would't have beaten Evenepoel. No way. He was only able to win after the Covid-disease of Evenepoel and against the very old Thomas..... with a few seconds. We will never known what Evenepoel was able to during the Vuelta, after been confronted with the monstercoalition Vingegaard, Roglic, Kuss. And after a dubious breakdown. At the end, Roglic was only third (coming to the vuelta to win). No way Roglic could win the Tour 2024 only by taking a few seconds and boniseconds by sprinting uphill 200 m.

Are you Michel Wuyts? To finish first, first you have to finish. It's not relevant what Evenepoel could or couldn't have done in the Giro. Roglic was hardly 100% fit himself, after his crash. But he just soldiered on. Other riders than Evenepoel experience injuries and illness as well, you know. Also, the "very old Thomas" came off a podium finish in the Tour just last year.

 

[Samamba]

I actually have no idea what the average WT team budget is these days, but I am guessing 15M maybe?

Way way higher. 26.3M euros to be exact, but a few teams obviously bump it up by a lot. The UCI has not publicized a median number, which would probably give a better idea as to where most WT teams are.

 

[Boehmand]

do you know how difficult it used to be to follow bike races even a decade ago, let alone 20-30 years back ? the only race that even appeared on tv was TdF, and it was highlights, if you wanted to follow the womens races even as recently as 2012 you had to hope a team employed someone who understood social media, and could tweet stuff about the race, or you read about it a week later if someone bothered to write it up.

this is a golden age of access compared to what it was, I can watch races on my phone, I can follow live coverage online, riders are posting what they had for breakfast online, some are even making jokey ASMR videos now.

you think cycling can pull in the kinds of viewing figures that football can ? that FIFA claim half the population of the world watch its world cup.

most of footballs finances are just some ridiculous ponzi scheme that only supports itself continuing, because if it failed it would bring the whole damn sport down and theres too much invested to let it fail, so they just keep extending the money pit.

cycling doesnt need to copy that kind of setup. 10-20million is a lot of money for alot of sports.

Comparing cycling to football is never a good idea, because there are for more differences than similarities.

For starters the need for a stadium - often on prime real estate and often with all kinds of associated businesses/vendors/etc. - as well as extensive training facilities, makes football a far more costly and complicated operation to run.

Another major difference is that in most pro football leagues, the teams own the league (and subsequently also the broadcast rights).

The two sports and business models are simply so far removed from each other, that it makes no sense to compare them.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In the Giro, Roglic would't have beaten Evenepoel. No way. He was only able to win after the Covid-disease of Evenepoel and against the very old Thomas..... with a few seconds. We will never known what Evenepoel was able to during the Vuelta, after been confronted with the monstercoalition Vingegaard, Roglic, Kuss. And after a dubious breakdown. At the end, Roglic was only third (coming to the vuelta to win). No way Roglic could win the Tour 2024 only by taking a few seconds and boniseconds by sprinting uphill 200 m.

I see. Remco had monster of coalition at the Vuetla. On top of that Rogla is getting older each year. So why proposing 200m as 50m should do just fine.

 

[proffate]

Let’s be honest, beside Remco, which qs rider would be an asset ? Asgreen? Any others?

I would be happy to take Cattaneo, Cavagna, Lampaert as my TDF doms. But there is a limit to how many of these workhorses you can utilize.

I don't understand why the merger isn't happening with Lotto. Those teams are much closer in spirit and they already swap sponsors all the time. Just keep the top 5 lotto riders and merge into the Wolfpack, and you might actually have enough firepower to challenge in the classics.