Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[Anonymous]

Again, unless one is a gambler, he does not lose financially when an athlete commits "fraud" by using performance enhancing drugs, nor is the fan harmed in any physical way. That's the difference between breaking sporting rules and committing real crimes like investment fraud or meth production/sale/use: crimes have real victims. (not just hurt feelings).

The first guy to finish who didn't use performance enhancing drugs would disagree. So would I considering that going to races or even watching them on TV costs the consumer money in several different ways. There is an economic cost even if there are not tickets. But I fall back to the guy who was clean and lost to a doper or several of them. To say that guy (lets consider him small business himself because as a professional, he is) didn't financially lose something is just wrong. You are wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. In a business model the cheaters not only cheat other businesses (riders) out of money, but they cheat the consumer (us) too.

 

[B.Rasmussen]

Again, unless one is a gambler, he does not lose financially when an athlete commits "fraud" by using performance enhancing drugs, nor is the fan harmed in any physical way. That's the difference between breaking sporting rules and committing real crimes like investment fraud or meth production/sale/use: crimes have real victims. (not just hurt feelings).

The clean athlete and those working for him are also defrauded and so are his sponsors. The advertising for winning a tour is worth millions and the sponsor of the clean athlete should rightfully feel defrauded.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Jacques Anquetil said something you might find interesting Stephens. He said if doping were that serious of a problem, then the police would get involved, and in the end they were the only ones he trusted to be impartial.

In case you weren't sure, Anquitil was a known doper, probably through his entire career.

 

[stephens]

You guys have a point that the other athletes are cheated. But I still hold that to be an internal problem of the sport and something the athletes and sporting organizations should tackle, not the police. After all, the outrage has never come from other athletes. I've wondered why this is and all I can come up with is that they just don't find these substances any more dangerous to their health than all the other things they are required to do to compete and so view the legal/illegal line to be somewhat arbitrary.

Clearly I have a different opinion. Big deal. Don't get so worked up just because one guy out there has a different opinion.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You guys have a point that the other athletes are cheated. But I still hold that to be an internal problem of the sport and something the athletes and sporting organizations should tackle, not the police. After all, the outrage has never come from other athletes. I've wondered why this is and all I can come up with is that they just don't find these substances any more dangerous to their health than all the other things they are required to do to compete and so view the legal/illegal line to be somewhat arbitrary.

Clearly I have a different opinion. Big deal. Don't get so worked up just because one guy out there has a different opinion.

Again the investigation is not about doping persay, it is about a sports team having in their possession medical paraphernalia that is illegal to have and/or use except by a licensed person under proper medical conditions. Also disposing of such items is a potential health hazard thus the particular jurisdiction of the french group that is doing the investigating.
Think of it as trying to take a bong on an airplane. Maybe you didn't use it, maybe it's not even yours, chances are you're in trouble if they find it in your bag.

 

[BroDeal]

Yes, it is only entertainment. The problem is certain individuals have turned this entertainment into multi-million and even in one case a billlion dollar business. The excessive money changed the game. Now, I look at pro cycling as a very serious entertainment business and business laws should be applied and if I cheat in business and am caught, there are legal ramifications. Bernie Maddof (sp?) will spend the next 150 years in prison pondering that basic fact of life. Winning by fraudulent means to me is tantamount to the same fraud perpetrated by old Bernie. If you don't agree, then I have some underwater real estate in Florida I would like to sell you.

Exactly right. For some reason people usually do not view fraud as harshly as other crimes, even though the damage is often much much worse. Rob a convenience store of forty dollars and a twelve pack, go directly to prison for armed robbery. Chisel hundreds of people out of what they have saved over a lifetime of work, and chances are that the police will not even bother investigating. Chances of getting prosecuted are very low, and sentences are light if the person is unlucky enough to be one of the very few convicted. Perhaps after Madoff and the hundreds of other fraudsters that have had their schemes exposed recently, the attitudes are changing somewhat.

The damage that sports fraud goes beyond the money that is stolen from sponsors and athletes who do not dope. It damages society's culture. Sports stars are hugely popular. People look up to them. It is not good if members of society see that the way to become successful is to cheat and lie your way to the top.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think he's arguing that it's not harmful to society financially, or not worth prosecuting. I mean, I have the 2006 Tour on DVD, but I don't think Floyd ripped me off of my $45 because "he cheated" to win the race.

But I think there's a false dilemma there. It's not as though the police can either go after violent crime, or go after doping athletes, and they're wasting their resources on the latter. In an ideal world, all crimes committed would be stopped, and properly prosecuted. Of course, that's not so. But if the police have the ability to go after people in sports that use illegal medical supplies and drugs - pharmaceuticals and supplies manufactured for those who often desperately need it, not healthy athletes - then I think it is beneficial for society to have them to do so.

 

[B.Rasmussen]

I think he's arguing that it's not harmful to society financially, or not worth prosecuting. I mean, I have the 2006 Tour on DVD, but I don't think Floyd ripped me off of my $45 because "he cheated" to win the race.

But I think there's a false dilemma there. It's not as though the police can either go after violent crime, or go after doping athletes, and they're wasting their resources on the latter. In an ideal world, all crimes committed would be stopped, and properly prosecuted. Of course, that's not so. But if the police have the ability to go after people in sports that use illegal medical supplies and drugs - pharmaceuticals and supplies manufactured for those who often desperately need it, not healthy athletes - then I think it is beneficial for society to have them to do so.

Not to mention that a lot of the doping is provided by organised crime, who earn good (bad) money on this. Society not only pay the price for that, but also for the health costs of widespread doping both by pro athletes and the normal people who partly think it's ok to use the stuff because the pros get away with it.

 

[fatandfast]

Not to mention that a lot of the doping is provided by organised crime, who earn good (bad) money on this. Society not only pay the price for that, but also for the health costs of widespread doping both by pro athletes and the normal people who partly think it's ok to use the stuff because the pros get away with it.

I first thought you were kidding. In S.Cal you can go to Mexico (on your bike if you want@10 min ride from San Diego) Go to a pharmacy and buy a couple of brands of EPO and then go to the doctor to have it pumped into your body by somebody qualified and be home before lunch. Little harder in Poland, Romania, Hungry, Bulgaria. But way easier in Africa you could probably find a clerk with cross training in the use of needles. No organized crime/underworld/guy in a trench coat. Walk up to the window give them some cash and you get your purchase with a smile. Mexico price for Micera@ 125 bucks. The reason all these athletes are getting stung is the rest of the world wants money not moral lessons. You could probably get a ride to the pharmacy in Nigeria by a friendly policeman that has a cousin who works there.

 

[poupou]

I think he's arguing that it's not harmful to society financially, or not worth prosecuting. I mean, I have the 2006 Tour on DVD, but I don't think Floyd ripped me off of my $45 because "he cheated" to win the race.

But the doped winner steals the good of the clean rider/team...

If I steal the contract or use illegaly a patent of a company for my own company, that is not more harmfull for the society, does it make more worth to prosecute it?

 

[sars1981]

But I fall back to the guy who was clean and lost to a doper or several of them. To say that guy (lets consider him small business himself because as a professional, he is) didn't financially lose something is just wrong. You are wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. In a business model the cheaters not only cheat other businesses (riders) out of money, but they cheat the consumer (us) too.

The most amazing thing about cycling to me is the complete lack of outrage and indignation by the cyclists when other riders are caught. The fact is if a rider is cheating, he can be depriving other clean athletes of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars. The link is not indirect. Normally you would be pretty ****ed off if someone was trying to cheat you out of your livelihood, yet there is no condemnation and the riders sometimes even apologize for them. How very, very bizarre.

 

[dopingectomy]

The bottom line is that, in my book at least, widespread use of anti-hypertensives equals blood doping.

Not only blood doping. Telmisartan acts also as a regulator of insulin and glucose metabolism.

 

[kurtinsc]

Am I correct in thinking that the transfusion bags are really the only issue with the Astana trash thing?

I looked at the one picture in the thread... and as a diabetic most of the stuff looked like someone with diabetes was on the staff. I even saw a container of the same brand of test strips that I use to test my blood sugar. Even the anti-hypertension drugs can be used by diabetics to combat some of the cardiovascular side effects that can result from being a diabetic.

The big issue seems to be the transfusion stuff, and who's DNA might be on the transfusion equipment. Is that pretty much the issue boiled down to it's basic element?

 

[red_explosions]

Am I correct in thinking that the transfusion bags are really the only issue with the Astana trash thing?

I looked at the one picture in the thread... and as a diabetic most of the stuff looked like someone with diabetes was on the staff. I even saw a container of the same brand of test strips that I use to test my blood sugar. Even the anti-hypertension drugs can be used by diabetics to combat some of the cardiovascular side effects that can result from being a diabetic.

The big issue seems to be the transfusion stuff, and who's DNA might be on the transfusion equipment. Is that pretty much the issue boiled down to it's basic element?

Yep. If the DNA is that of the riders then a lot of people's suspicions will be confirmed. Personally I'd be amazed if the DNA was anyone's other than the riders. Unless of course there are seven people in need of infusions on the Astana staff lol.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The most amazing thing about cycling to me is the complete lack of outrage and indignation by the cyclists when other riders are caught. The fact is if a rider is cheating, he can be depriving other clean athletes of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars. The link is not indirect. Normally you would be pretty ****ed off if someone was trying to cheat you out of your livelihood, yet there is no condemnation and the riders sometimes even apologize for them. How very, very bizarre.

Omerta.....

 

[Kennf1]

Yep. If the DNA is that of the riders then a lot of people's suspicions will be confirmed. Personally I'd be amazed if the DNA was anyone's other than the riders. Unless of course there are seven people in need of infusions on the Astana staff lol.

It seems that any DS would do well to have on staff people who are diabetic, asthmatic, hypertensive, and anemic.

 

[blackcat]

It seems that any DS would do well to have on staff people who are diabetic, asthmatic, hypertensive, and anemic.

that is Bruyneel's talent.

Like Saiz had a talent for blind swannies at ONCE who had a greater recovery healing power in their hands than the lord Hey-Zoos Cry-SSt

 

[Anonymous]

It seems that any DS would do well to have on staff people who are diabetic, asthmatic, hypertensive, and anemic.

They also need a herd of cows.

 

[ChrisE]

Omerta.....

And the fact that most of them are doing the same thing, but just haven't been caught.

 

[Hugh Januss]

And the fact that most of them are doing the same thing, but just haven't been caught.

Isn't that part of what makes Omerta work? A new pro has the choice of doing what the others do or trying to keep up without it. In either case he better keep quiet about it or he will find that no team really has an opening for him.

 

[Karma02]

I believe most athletes could have exercise induced asthma. Athletes push themselves harder, breath more of this worlds' poluted air (ride directly behind motorcycles, cars) than the normal population. The normal fat population would never have their heart rate up high enought to know they have exercise induced asthma. Read up on what exercise induced asthma is. The bodies non-ability to handle the pollutants coming in.
The pros- have has so many tests done on them that they will definetely know if they have it and have a TUE for it.
Could they go without it. Yes. But they are at risk for an asthma attack the higher their heart rate gets.

 

[red_flanders]

I believe most athletes could have exercise induced asthma. Athletes push themselves harder, breath more of this worlds' poluted air (ride directly behind motorcycles, cars) than the normal population. The normal fat population would never have their heart rate up high enought to know they have exercise induced asthma. Read up on what exercise induced asthma is. The bodies non-ability to handle the pollutants coming in.
The pros- have has so many tests done on them that they will definetely know if they have it and have a TUE for it.
Could they go without it. Yes. But they are at risk for an asthma attack the higher their heart rate gets.

What's the link between the Astana case and exercise induced asthma? Thx.

 

[ChrisE]

Isn't that part of what makes Omerta work? A new pro has the choice of doing what the others do or trying to keep up without it. In either case he better keep quiet about it or he will find that no team really has an opening for him.

Yeah, I guess so. We use "omerta" as a general term I think when describing the doped peloton. I think the literal meaning is a code of silence based upon the threat of retribution. Your example is a good one in terms of retribution. Kohl is making alot of noise because he will not return and therefore doesn't give a shyt. Most clam up, though, but is it omerta or attitude? I think it is a combination.

I was talking more about hypocrisy; the fact that most don't have a problem with doping so they don't speak up. Second best doper in the 2005 Vuelta Menchov defended Heras in a roundabout way, as well as another rider I have termed "yardstick" elsewhere (though I have searched for that quote in the past and can't find it). That opened my eyes alot....why does a majority clean peloton not show outrage at being denied glory and income by dopers? Because the majority are doped.

 

[issoisso]

I was talking more about hypocrisy; the fact that most don't have a problem with doping so they don't speak up. Second best doper in the 2005 Vuelta Menchov defended Heras in a roundabout way, as well as another rider I have termed "yardstick" elsewhere (though I have searched for that quote in the past and can't find it). That opened my eyes alot....why does a majority clean peloton not show outrage at being denied glory and income by dopers? Because the majority are doped.

And defended Di Luca this year and called him "a great champion"...

Who's "yardstick" by the way?

 

[ChrisE]

And defended Di Luca this year and called him "a great champion"...

Who's "yardstick" by the way?

Yardstick is Christian Vandevelde. Not singling him out, but on another forum alot of people always seemed to equate how doped the peloton was by where he placed in races. He is "assumed" to be clean lol.....you know the guy that rode for USPS and Saiz. I think it is ludicrous to "think" we know who does what, or who would or wouldn't do anything.

When he was 4th in 2008 TdF there was concerted ejaculation on that forum that the peloton was clean. Some assclown even said if he finished far down on 2009 the peloton was doped again.

So, I dubbed him "yardstick" as a measure of how clean/doped the peloton is.

As for the quote about Heras by VdV, I googled it many times in the past trying to find it but I want to preface this by saying I can't so maybe I am mistaken. But I am positive I read it I think on CN, when Heras was busted. Maybe Susan remembers. Regardless, his reputation is stupid IMO because nobody knows what he does day in and day out, or whether he would dope even disregarding who he has riden for in the past.

Then again, just today I could've sworn and engineer working for me did something last week, and that turned out to be false. Old age, beer, and riding with no helmet are taking it's toll.

BTW, you like my avatar? Hope you don't get VD from looking at it....you were my inspiration for changing my previous avatar to Megan Fox. Alot of forum members are thankful.