JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[sniper]

Of course not.

Nobody looks good in this mess. During his case Floyd said a lot of stupid stuff, I certainly don't hold it against him. I have joked with him about some of the crap I wrote about him. JV and Floyd still talk, have dinner, hang out, so while you might get worked up about it he has gotten over it.

sorry, but you're deflecting here.
it's not about what you did/said wrt floyd, it's about what all those garmin riders did/said.
how can you not see that as an indication that these guys might have some things to hide for themselves?
i don't see why you are indirectly attacking Digger by applauding pmcg's message.
Digger is fed up with the lies.
You aren't?
If you don't care, I could full respect and understand that, but then I don't understand those underhand attacks at Digger.

 

[Race Radio]

sorry, but you're deflecting here.

Nah, just telling the truth. Some would prefer to continue to pound JV for every stupid thing his employees said 5 years ago. Ultimately JV getting those employees to to talk to USADA are what removed Marti, Celya, del Moral, Bruyneel, Ferrari, and Armstrong from the sport.

 

[Digger]

Nah, just telling the truth. Some would prefer to continue to pound JV for every stupid thing his employees said 5 years ago. Ultimately JV getting those employees to to talk to USADA are what removed Marti, Celya, del Moral, Bruyneel, Ferrari, and Armstrong from the sport.

Ultimately these guys talked because of Floyd and jeff...if you don't accept this point I would ask whether you think these guys would have come forward without Floyd and Jeff initiating the process...

You say five years ago...is that from the lance school of maths...

 

[BYOP88]

Nah, just telling the truth. Some would prefer to continue to pound JV for every stupid thing his employees said 5 years ago. Ultimately JV getting those employees to to talk to USADA are what removed Marti, Celya, del Moral, Bruyneel, Ferrari, and Armstrong from the sport.

It's good that Armstrong etc are gone from the sport, but IMHO JV and his band of merry men should be gone from it too.

 

[hrotha]

You say five years ago...is that from the lance school of maths...

**** me it's actually been over 4 years already. WHERE DID THE TIME GO.

 

[pmcg76]

Be my guest. If you can, show me how guys like Leinders, Ferrari, Lefevre or Riis are putting themselves on anti-doping high horses as much as Vaughters/Braislford.

Well unlike others, the reason I give JV credence is that from the start of Slipstream in 2008 he was clear about dopers on his team. He never set out with this mantra of "we will have no contact with dopers" which many have tried to associate him with since.

When the team was launched in Boulder, Vaughters said there would be riders on the team who had doped in the past but there would be no doping whilst at his team. Period. As far as he was concerned, the past was the past and everyone started with a clean sheet with him. He never hid this and was quite open about it, was reported in articles so hardly secretive.

Now people might not agree with that and some of the riders who lost places on the team were not happy about it but he never tried to BS about it.

Digger trades on second hand rumours and info and presents them as facts. Anybody can do that, for example I have talked with a few people who have been friends with Garmin/ex-Garmin riders. According to them JV is the real deal when it comes to the no doping stuff and has been firm on that stance.

Through the same sources I have heard that JV can also be a real ****, petty and not the greatest people person ever. This has been played out in several public incidents e.g Lowe, Hushovd, Pate that are mostly known about. JV has admitted this of course but just because most people don't hear about it, they don't even know.

JV did an interview with Mike Creed way back where they talked about how Creed hated him after he was fired by Slipstream. Creed felt he was mistreated by JV. They talked about how JV had treated a few riders badly, Lucas Eusar being another and JV put his hands up and admitted that he wasn't perfect but that was part of management, being a **** at times. Of course a rider who is fired is never going to be happy.

However, none of this means he is not genuine in his anti-doping stance.

Too often here people twist what JV says to suit their own agenda, the most common being JV saying things have improved being turned into JV saying there is no longer doping, and then everytime someone test's positive or does a unbelievable ride, trying to jam it to JV as Oh, I thought things were clean. Well, uh he never said that and riders testing positive still don't negate the idea that things might have improved.

Garmin have 50 staff plus so the fact that they don't all share the same opinion on something is hardly surprising. I can understand why some might have been ****ed at Floyd, nobody want's to see their sordid past being dragged into public even if they have moved on.

If we are trying to judge Garmin's cleanliness on whether a few riders were not supportive of Landis, the we are moving to a whole new level of craziness. Yes, lets start banning people based on their personal opinions.

 

[sniper]

Nah, just telling the truth. Some would prefer to continue to pound JV for every stupid thing his employees said 5 years ago. Ultimately JV getting those employees to to talk to USADA are what removed Marti, Celya, del Moral, Bruyneel, Ferrari, and Armstrong from the sport.

yes, and is that your only concern? Should we content ourselves with that? Of course not.
Some, like Digger, are concerned about cycling in the post-lance era.
Why aren't you interested in what Digger has to say, e.g. wrt Hesjedal? I haven't seen you express any concerns there. Generally, why do you want Digger to stop exposing Garmin lies?
Aren't you worried that doping still goes on?
Is Lance really your only concern?

 

[MarkvW]

Just to clarify something, can you seriously sit there and be ok with those interviews from Christian, Millar, Weltz and Wiggins?

Because you know what, if these guys had said nothing, I might not have agreed, but I would have understood....what actually happened was far worse...they went against a guy who they knew full well was being honest. And in two instances above, had first hand knowledge that landis was being honest...

At least Michael Barry had the grace to say I need to apologise to Floyd as he was right all along.

To be fair, all those guys also went against Floyd while he was lying his ass off. At least they consistently went against him.

 

[weeniebeenie]

At least Michael Barry had the grace to say I need to apologise to Floyd as he was right all along.

Do you know that the others haven't apologised to him?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

+1

Good post

Dude seriously? CV (aka Yard Stick) took the **** out of Floyd and now has a job announcing cycling. WTF. Floyd got thrown well under the bus by his peers at Garmin and JV was the Leader of them.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Through the same sources I have heard that JV can also be a real ****, petty and not the greatest people person ever. This has been played out in several public incidents e.g Lowe, Hushovd, Pate that are mostly known about. JV has admitted this of course but just because most people don't hear about it, they don't even know.

Exactly, there are plenty of riders in the US that left the Slipstream system on iffy terms. If there was team doping, or if JV is a total fraud we would have heard about it.

The most outrageous commenters here have zero knowledge of the people they attack.

 

[Race Radio]

yes, and is that your only concern? Should we content ourselves with that? Of course not.
Some, like Digger, are concerned about cycling in the post-lance era.

Um.....isn't that the point several here are making?

If you could actually come up with something new rather than rehash the same old stuff everyone already knows about.

I get it, beating on JV is fun.....but eventually something from this year would be good. Beating on him for something Wiggins said? That is a stretch.

 

[Race Radio]

Dude seriously? CV (aka Yard Stick) took the **** out of Floyd and now has a job announcing cycling. WTF. Floyd got thrown well under the bus by his peers at Garmin and JV was the Leader of them.

And what was JV's response to the white rapper? Told VDV to shut it and go talk to Travis.

 

[the sceptic]

Um.....isn't that the point several here are making?



I get it, beating on JV is fun.....but eventually something from this year would be good. Beating on him for something Wiggins said? That is a stretch.

How about this..

Danielson sucks everywhere except in the US, where he just beat Horner who according to you is better than Froome. Seems hard to believe he is clean.

 

[Benotti69]

Exactly, there are plenty of riders in the US that left the Slipstream system on iffy terms. If there was team doping, or if JV is a total fraud we would have heard about it.

Why would they? How many have talked? Ricco? O'Grady? Menchov? not too many talk...why would Garmin ex riders be any different? Omerta is strong in sport and even those shyt on from a height think long and hard before spitting in the soup.

 

[kingjr]

How about this..

Danielson sucks everywhere except in the US, where he just beat Horner who according to you is better than Froome.

That part is only relevant if we assume that this is true right now.

 

[Race Radio]

How about this..

Danielson sucks everywhere except in the US, where he just beat Horner who according to you is better than Froome. Seems hard to believe he is clean.

Thanks for proving my point.

If the most recent thing you can come up with is that Tommy D won a race against a guy who almost died earlier this year I can understand why you would prefer to obsessed over how to pin Wiggins quotes on him.

 

[hrotha]

I'm sorry but 4 years ago is pretty damn recent, considering Slipstream was dancing to the exact same tune back then.

 

[the sceptic]

Thanks for proving my point.

If the most recent thing you can come up with is that Tommy D won a race against a guy who almost died earlier this year I can understand why you would prefer to obsessed over how to pin Wiggins quotes on him.

Danielson put minutes into the "new generation" on one MTF. How is that any less suspicious than what Horner did in the vuelta last year?

If Danielson is really that good, why can he only do it when riding at home?

 

[Race Radio]

I'm sorry but 4 years ago is pretty damn recent, considering Slipstream was dancing to the exact same tune back then.

True.....but ignoring everything else that JV, and Slipstream, did since those quotes is willfully ignorant.

 

[Digger]

Just to surmise a few things:
I find it ironic that certain people are talking about my JV obsession when they have been on a lance/johan Jihad for a decade or so.
Unlike many, I know that doping hasn't ended with lance now gone...so my posts and tweets reflect this. That's my issue with many, if you were as stringent on others as you were lance, then maybe we could get somewhere.
Garmin/Slipstream was set up from the outset with the idea they were going to be transparent and anti doping...so like it or not, you are going to be judged on this.
It's my opinion that some things Garmin staff have said are not consistent with this...whether that be the praise of Alberto, or the vilifying of Landis. Why would you sh** on someone in the media when you know perfectly well he's being honest? Why would you do this to someone who was getting it already from the lance side? So yes, I find it laughable when JV says we supported him where it matters (with USADA)...how was saying this in the media supporting him when he was already being vilified in the press?
People say Floyd was supported when it came to USADA, Travis etc...well it's my opinion that without Floyd and Jeff, not one of these guys would have come forward. JV says he contacted Travis to get Jeff's number...ok fair enough, but what difference did it make? Jeff was going to come for them all anyway...so again without Jeff and Floyd where would we be?
But JV and his team are being made out to be the heroes here....I mean one his of star riders in 2012 (two years ago not FIVE) said there was no evidence against lance.
I find it very bad form what JV said about Kohl and Joerg...Kohl for example where he talks about his lack of talent and results...yet then comes on here and talks about Froome's 'crazy adaptive physiology' as being a possibility for his improvement...how is that fair?

People, fans, seem to be turning a blind eye to the six month bans, in winter time...how is that fair?
I ask JV about his lack of a ban, and he said Frankie didn't get one either...as though that makes it ok.
Also the Ryder doping timeline - how in the name of God can anyone not question this?

Now people either apply the same standards to JV, Garmin, Sky or whoever else, as they did to lance, or they are being very short sighted and unfair.

As regards whether I am Karol, FUGLY, an alien or whether people post tweets about what they think is my family, it matters not to the content of what I say.
Today it's the JV fans having a go...usually it's the SKY fans...

Whether Floyd visited JV and borrowed a bike and left pedals is besides the point...that's his business and it matters not one jot to me...I am both intelligent enough and knowledgeable enough after 30 years of watching this to know what I think is B.S.

 

[Digger]

For the record, I am not blaming JV for the following...But I am having a go at millar.
I honestly think he's a disgrace and Garmin will be a better team with him gone. He's never pulled up by the British media for this kind of stuff.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-calls-for-closure-in-armstrong-and-contador-investigations

"Alberto Contador is untouchable as rider, he is a physical freak and we in the peloton have known that for a long time and respect his supreme talent. I would be very surprised if he didn't end up as the greatest Grand Tour rider in the history of the sport. It’s a tragedy that he has got mixed up in this Clenbuterol thing but I am keeping an open mind on his case,” Millar told the Telegraph.

"Does anybody out there seriously doubt that Contador was riding clean in the Giro d'Italia that has just finished? You don't win the biggest races in the world with such clockwork regularity and comparative ease, and in such style, by not being the supreme talent and clean. In my experience the profile of a doper is always much more erratic and unpredictable.”

"The rest of us mere mortals have "magic days" when every so often when we can take on the world. Contador's default setting is a "Magic day". His only departure from the norm is when he experiences merely an average day. They are the only two levels he rides at. My strong instinct is to trust that."

 

[pmcg76]

Why would they? How many have talked? Ricco? O'Grady? Menchov? not too many talk...why would Garmin ex riders be any different? Omerta is strong in sport and even those shyt on from a height think long and hard before spitting in the soup.

We are not talking about going to the media or authorities, we are talking about rumour/second hand news level. For example, plenty of people in Canadian cycling including posters here had heard stories about Ryder long before he was exposed, and not of the generalised "he is doping because he is on Postal etc" type. I am talking specific stories that would be passed from one person to the next.

Think Matt DeCanio level gossip.

The exact same channels that the likes of Digger and Race Radio claim to get their inside info from.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

And what was JV's response to the white rapper? Told VDV to shut it and go talk to Travis.

I don't remember it that way. Hell I'm getting old.

I guess some would still hold it against JV for not helping out Floyd when they knew he was in desperate need. Makes JV look in some folks eyes as a hypocrite. Just my 2 cents.

Also why in the end do all those guys get a pass? We know they were all juiced and all of them were hiding it, regardless of pressure. They did not have the balls to make a stand.

 

[Digger]

I don't remember it that way. Hell I'm getting old.

I guess some would still hold it against JV for not helping out Floyd when they knew he was in desperate need. Makes JV look in some folks eyes as a hypocrite. Just my 2 cents.

Also why in the end do all those guys get a pass? We know they were all juiced and all of them were hiding it, regardless of pressure. They did not have the balls to make a stand.

The six month thing is and was a disgrace...at one stage it was zero months - and they even got to ride that years tour - along with George.

Then we had Christian moaning how hard his 'suspension' was as it meant missing a training camp....unreal.

But hey they got lance - who cares right