JV talks, sort of

[V3R1T4S]

He was only 20 or 21 when he took it. From what I know, he is the only athlete to ever make it through the 6.5 w/kg stage. Barely, from what I heard. Meaning 10 mins at 6.0 and 10 mins at 6.5 w/kg... This probably means on a climb of 30-45 mins he could sustain 6.2 range.

Thank you for your answer. That is exactly what I would have expected.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks - Compulsory attendence seems like a long shot to me. Maybe it could be a requirement for riders to be eligible to ride for a Pro Tour team. Legal enforcability issues abound, one assumes.

How would people who didn't sign up be treated for subsequent first offences? How would the need for equality of treatment across sports - if any - apply? Thanks again.

Sorry, but can the TRC discussion go to the appropriate thread?
JV has given his answer on it, and it should be noted that terms have not yet been set and that the UCI version will never happen.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Yes. I will do that. I have done, but what i say gets edited down into juicy sound bytes that **** me off.

Allow me to write a juicy soundbite for you.

T & R if it is to mean anything or have any long term impact on the sport must have the ability to punish and remove the worst offenders from our sport forever.

 

[hrotha]

I still don't see how T&R can go forward when a large and very successful chunk of the peloton (the Spanish) isn't even pretending to be willing to face its demons.

 

[sniper]

He was only 20 or 21 when he took it. From what I know, he is the only athlete to ever make it through the 6.5 w/kg stage. Barely, from what I heard. Meaning 10 mins at 6.0 and 10 mins at 6.5 w/kg... This probably means on a climb of 30-45 mins he could sustain 6.2 range.

What I wanted to ask: was Pepe Martí around when you were at USPS?
When did you learn that Alberto was working with him?
Do you have an idea whatever happened to Pepe Marti after Alberto stopped working with him?

 

[Benotti69]

I still don't see how T&R can go forward when a large and very successful chunk of the peloton (the Spanish) isn't even pretending to be willing to face its demons.

Why single out the Spanish, what about the Italians, the Belgians, the Dutch or even the English?

I dont see much of the peloton calling for anything.

 

[RownhamHill]

Hi JV thanks for taking the time to come and talk to the Clinic, and engage in discussion (and actually thanks to other posters involved - it's actually been pretty good discussion in the last day or so)

So I have a question which is a bit random. What was the truth of that whole 2009 George Hincapie in the break, missing the yellow jumper episode? I've variously heard it tell that Lance/Astana brought him back for some kind of omerta based payback, that you ordered him brought back for some kind of 'anti-doping' payback, or that it was all a terrible mistake, so just wondered, since you were there whether you could talk more frankly about it now?

 

[sniper]

Why single out the Spanish, what about the Italians, the Belgians, the Dutch or even the English?

I dont see much of the peloton calling for anything.

true. well, except us Dutchies perhaps.
But while team Rabo is with its trousers down, one of the most incredible Dutch performances last season came from Hoogerland.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This drives me nuts...you and I know full well what the truth is here on Lim.

Hold on Dig, what do you know and how do you know it?

I'm assuming its through Floyd and what he said to PK. If so, then Floyd says Lims role was limited to 'logistics'.
JV has said that Lim admitted he knew Floyd was doping, but remember these guys lived in doper world, Floyd may have said to JV that Lim wasn't part of his doping even if Lim was involved with logistics.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I still don't see how T&R can go forward when a large and very successful chunk of the peloton (the Spanish) isn't even pretending to be willing to face its demons.

Thanks - Compulsory attendence seems like a long shot to me. Maybe it could be a requirement for riders to be eligible to ride for a Pro Tour team. Legal enforcability issues abound, one assumes.

How would people who didn't sign up be treated for subsequent first offences? How would the need for equality of treatment across sports - if any - apply? Thanks again.

You set the rules beforehand which includes the ability to compel testimony.

No testimony and so you are subject punishment for refusing to testify when asked.

 

[hrotha]

Why single out the Spanish, what about the Italians, the Belgians, the Dutch or even the English?

I dont see much of the peloton calling for anything.

Because I'm Spanish, and I get to experience the attitude of the Spanish peloton first-hand.

In the matter of public opinion and having an antidoping stance, the Spanish peloton is more backwards than any other, from what I've seen. The Dutch are confessing, and even before this they had Dekker or Theunisse. The English, at least, have a public antidoping stance, which helps whether or not it's a farce (at least young riders have to be won over to the dark side, since they aren't nurtured in that openly pro-omertà atmosphere). I concede it is my impression the Belgians aren't much better than the Spanish, but even they had Museeuw confess.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You set the rules beforehand which includes the ability to compel testimony.

No testimony and so you are subject punishment for refusing to testify when asked.

Thanks. I guess if any rider/other participant feels so strongly about the subject, they can simply withdrawn from the sport.

 

[mastersracer]

Not a realistic option. It's a very basic principle of fairness that you can't be punished for what others do. While a DS can certainly do many things to keep his team clean no DS can guarentie that his riders won't take something, no matter how hard he tries.

Not true. The WADA code utilizes strict liability for athletes and the principle has been upheld by CAS. I was asking whether there has been any exploration of this principle as applied to management or whether JV would be open to exploring/advocating for it.

The problem is that the best strategy from a game-theoretic perspective is for team management to encourage doping implicitly because it provides utility for the team (results etc) while the risk falls on the rider. Anti-doping can't be effective with the current structural incentives that exist. These need to change.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not true. The WADA code utilizes strict liability for athletes and the principle has been upheld by CAS. I was asking whether there has been any exploration of this principle as applied to management or whether JV would be open to exploring/advocating for it.

The problem is that the best strategy from a game-theoretic perspective is for team management to encourage doping implicitly because it provides utility for the team (results etc) while the risk falls on the rider. Anti-doping can't be effective with the current structural incentives that exist. These need to change.

Would suggest a shift to a bargaining games based model with a view to examining - threat points, coercive/go it alone power and asymmetrical power in terms of forcing a change in the structural incentives.

 

[the asian]

Strict liability for Team Managers is too much.

If it's team wide doping or if the manager has supplied PEDS to the cyclist or insisted that the cyclist take PEDS no doubt the Manager should be banned.

But there would be instances where Cyclists dope without the consent or knowledge of the manager, and no manager should be punished for that.

It's a bit like finding the parents guilty too for a crime committed by their child.

 

[Benotti69]

Because I'm Spanish, and I get to experience the attitude of the Spanish peloton first-hand.

In the matter of public opinion and having an antidoping stance, the Spanish peloton is more backwards than any other, from what I've seen. The Dutch are confessing, and even before this they had Dekker or Theunisse. The English, at least, have a public antidoping stance, which helps whether or not it's a farce (at least young riders have to be won over to the dark side, since they aren't nurtured in that openly pro-omertà atmosphere). I concede it is my impression the Belgians aren't much better than the Spanish, but even they had Museeuw confess.

It seems to me the Dutch are caught by the balls and have to tell a it is going to come out anyway and after Armstrong nothing will sound as bad as the king of doping.

Museeuw said he took epo once. Ha! Manzano did much better than that!

 

[frenchfry]

Digger, all I'm saying is that different people tell me different stuff on this. I don't know. I don't care! Perhaps you underestimate how much Allen ****ed me off leaving for RS in 2009. The guy who extolled clean racing to me and told me all the horrible stories about Discovery, which made it to IM via Frankie...that guy went and worked for the person he claimed to hate. It's all I can do to be objective here. believe me, it'd be much easier to just call the guy names, etc.

However, that just ain't cool.

There are a lot of posters here that seem to forget that ALL ex-USPS/Disco riders stopped doping in 2006 at the latest. Of course that would also mean any RS riders in 2009.

After all, I read it in the reasoned report and heard in on Oprah so its gotta be true.

 

[carl spackler]

So Floyd told you and you dont believe him now that he laid it all bare. Lim shall be jusdged by his actions.

So Lim enabled doping. End of.

Why you think you can sell cycling as cleaner and get away with it is for the clueless fans who still yearn for EPO era like performances.

Cleaner peloton still means riders are doping and what we saw in 2012 showed that doping makes a big difference. The difference between arriving on a podium or not. I think of Boonen at PR, Wiggins whole season, Froome, La Vuelta.

You aren't credible. You think posting in here gives you cred. Blow that!

Landis doesnt come clean till 2010 when Lim is already gone from Garmin. Its possible Landis hadn't told Vaughters everything about Lim before that. The way I'm reading it Lim is just a guy who needs a job every now and then. Clean, dirty, whatever. Could have been clean on Garmin.

 

[mastersracer]

Would suggest a shift to a bargaining games based model with a view to examining - threat points, coercive/go it alone power and asymmetrical power in terms of forcing a change in the structural incentives.

The problem confronting riders has been modeled as a Prisoner's Dilemma, whose structure is quite intuitive. What I haven't seen is an extension of that model for the problem facing a DS - encouraging doping dominates there too and helps determine the payoffs for riders (a DS who threatens to fire riders for non-results, etc.). The game usage is illustrative, but the real-world problem ought to be to focus on management structural incentives as much if not more than rider-level incentives, which is what I was asking JV about.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yes. There are two aims of T & R. The first is truth. You can not have reconciliation without truth. You also can not have reconciliation if the worst offenders are not punished.

T & R has to involve everyone involved in the sport. T & R in South Africa involved not just politicians, security services but also the media, medical profession etc.

The punishment has to fit the crime. The degree of sentence depends on i) what you did and ii) your confession. So for example 'I stopped in 2006' will not get you an amnesty because your confession is only half-hearted and mere lip service.

Refuse to testify, or testify in an incomplete/evasive/unhelpful manner and you are punished. Get implicated by someone else - get punished, refuse to break omerta and name names - get punished.

T & R is about remaking the moral order. The old order represents a subverting of values and attitudes - ie omerta and the acceptability of doping, one of the principal motives for transitional justice is to mark a decisive break with the ‘abnormality’ and ‘immorality’ of the old system.

So guess what, if it means the peloton is 20 strong at the start of the TDF then so be it. Those 20 deserve their place at the start line and they deserve their right to race and to win the race clean. An unrepentant doper and his DS do not deserve to be there.

Hell man, we could be friends!

On the other hand, in the dirty rotten world called pro - cycling/sports a pragmatic way could also work, very well helais.

But I prefer yours. And to be clear, I want all the b@stards of the last 25 years.

It seems to me the Dutch are caught by the balls and have to tell a it is going to come out anyway and after Armstrong nothing will sound as bad as the king of doping.

Funny, that is the sentiment I hear here in Holland too, but why should this be? Rabo 2007? Why are former riders like Nelissen, Lotz, Niermann cleaning house? The big Dutch EPO wondrs are still very quiet.

 

[sniper]

Vaughters says he was mighty ****ed off when Lim left for RS.
Note though that Lim remained close associates with Inigo San Millan, who replaced Lim at Garmin.

article herefrom Gifford, starring San Millan, Lim, Crawford, Contador, Vaughters, a.o.

Couple of eyebrowe raisers in there.

“I’ve had very mediocre riders kick **** and make great careers,” says Colorado Mesa University coach Rick Crawford, a collegiate coach who has discovered talents like Tom Danielson, among others. “They take a 68 VO2 max and kick the crap out of the kid with a VO2 max of 85 because they’re smarter, they want it more, and they have an incredible will that can not be denied.” That type of willpower is what let Voeckler hold off better *riders for nearly two weeks, painfully and legendarily tearing himself to pieces until his body finally could give no more.

Jens Voigt, often seen on the front of the peloton with the face of a man whose toenails are being plucked out with hot pliers, relies on a Teutonic mantra: “Shut up, legs!”

“Dave doesn’t want any information,” explained Allen Lim, who was then Garmin’s team physiologist. Zabriskie’s suffering all takes place internally, measured to his own feedback, *although he’s not exactly alone in there. “When he’s in a time trial,” Lim said, “he thinks of himself as a superhero.”

Vande Velde is legendary for mediocre performances in fitness tests—and killing it in races. “The physiologists would look at his numbers and say, ‘I don’t know how this guy finishes top 20 in the Tour,’” says Jonathan Vaughters, his team director. Yet there he was in the 2008 Tour de France, in third place after two weeks, right behind Cadel Evans and ahead of both Schleck brothers.

San Millán: “Lactate is not solely responsible,” says San Millán. But, he says, “it is an *excellent *biomarker.” Over his career, he has collected biomarkers from hundreds of elite athletes, building a unique database

(think of the teams San Millán worked for. What a unique and reliable database of biomarkers he must have!)

 

[JV1973]

Vaughters says he was mighty ****ed off when Lim left for RS.
Note though that Lim remained close associates with Inigo San Millan, who replaced Lim at Garmin.

article herefrom Gifford, starring San Millan, Lim, Crawford, Contador, Vaughters, a.o.

Couple of eyebrowe raisers in there.

Do you have a point? Any quote can seem funny when taken out of context to a child snickering in the corner.

Lim and San Milan barely know each other and are not friends. At all.

And insinuation stuff about San Milan is truly petty. He's a guy that got punched in the face trying to prevent doping on Saunier Duval. Far more than an anonymous guy named "sniper" has ever done to prevent doping.

Once again, this is proving pointless. Once again, I've been defeated. I need to go back to the evil PR cave.









(think of the teams San Millán worked for. What a unique and reliable database of biomarkers he must have!)

Do you have a point? Any quote can seem funny when taken out of context to a child snickering in the corner.

Lim and San Milan barely know each other and are not friends. At all.

And insinuation stuff about San Milan is truly petty. He's a guy that got punched in the face trying to prevent doping on Saunier Duval. Far more than an anonymous guy named "sniper" has ever done to prevent doping.

Once again, this is proving pointless. Once again, I've been defeated. I need to go back to the evil PR cave.

 

[JV1973]

Vaughters says he was mighty ****ed off when Lim left for RS.
Note though that Lim remained close associates with Inigo San Millan, who replaced Lim at Garmin.

article herefrom Gifford, starring San Millan, Lim, Crawford, Contador, Vaughters, a.o.

Couple of eyebrowe raisers in there.






(think of the teams San Millán worked for. What a unique and reliable database of biomarkers he must have!)

To be clear, Allen and Inigo spent 4 days together, in Jan 2009, testing our guys. That is the entire extent of their relationship.

Now, Inigo and Adrie van Diemen, Lemond's old coach and our current head trainer. those two have remained friends.

But that's not as much fun. Is it?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

To be clear, Allen and Inigo spent 4 days together, in Jan 2009, testing our guys. That is the entire extent of their relationship.

Now, Inigo and Adrie van Diemen, Lemond's old coach and our current head trainer. those two have remained friends.

But that's not as much fun. Is it?

I believe van Diemen. Lim? No way, a bad spot on your team. San Millan? Same as van Diemen I guess.

The only thing I have 'against' those guys is: they know things are humanly impossible and did not raise flagsto the grand public. But, being human as well. I can understand. Being cynical does not mean being stupid.

Let's not overdo the part of Lim in pro - cycling. That would be too funny. Small fish, he is nowhere in regards to the staff of former Pro Team Katusha, won't even mention the Astana/Ferarra staff in the same sentence...

 

[JV1973]

I believe van Diemen. Lim? No way, a bad spot on your team. San Millan? Same as van Diemen I guess.

The only thing I have 'against' those guys is: they know things are humanly impossible and did not raise flagsto the grand public. But, being human as well. I can understand. Being cynical does not mean being stupid.

Let's not overdo the part of Lim in pro - cycling. That would be too funny. Small fish, he is nowhere in regards to the staff of former Pro Team Katusha, won't even mention the Astana/Ferarra staff in the same sentence...

Allen is like the crazy, drunk uncle in the family. I have to admit I know him, but I don't really want to. And he's not invited to Christmas dinner.