JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

Slightly off topic, but the premise is the change in Alberto's putative program in recent years:

Jonathan, don't you think Ryder is better suited to the Tour than Giro this year?* Seems to me that with Alberto having "toned down" in recent years, he's just a tad more vulnerable that before--harder time making his attacks stick. Two ascents of Alpe d'Huez. If Alberto fires too many high octane attacks he might be vulnerable. Am thinking the Sky train and a diesel rider like Ryder, LOL, who could hang with it end of a long day. Thinking of Ryder's Stelvio experience; the longer the better....

Thoughts, even just in general? Everyone can be beaten. There's a way to beat Bertie.

(*Here, big props to Canc. who is rumoured to be skipping the Tour to focus on classics. Ryder would do well to consider the Tour; these "defenses" of cycling titles are meaningless to me, because it ain't boxing.)

Personally, I think Ryder is one of the few riders better suited to doing both GTs... He isn't so explosive, but his resilience is incredible.

 

[pmcg76]

I hope so! Good lord that team was a nuclear power plant.

JV,

Are you aware of any teams that actually had a clean reputation at any time.

For example, the Helvetia team of Paul Koechli had a reputation as a clean team back in the late 80s/90s.

Do you know anything about this team or have you ever come into contact with Koechli who seemed to have a very strong anti-doping ethos.

I have asked around and heard good things.

 

[JV1973]

How do you expect T&R to work? How many riders could be expected to come forward for T&R? Where is the motivation or even the self-interest? For riders who have not been caught, which is a huge number, there does not appear to be anything to gain and much to lose. For riders who were caught in the past, how many would give anything other than a weak mea culpa with no information about others? Brailsford has already indicated that he would not want his riders coming forward. There has to be many managers with that same attitude, sort of, "It's fine as long as it is limited and does not touch my team."

You're right, that is the attitude. My idea would be simple, you get one chance in a 3-4 week period to say everything. If you lie, and you get caught in that lie by testimony or otherwise, life ban. If you are 100% truthful, amnesty.

If you get caught later on for something else, life ban.

T&R is a way to get all the bad news out, at once. Right now we are doing the "media finds one ex-doper from 8 yrs ago every 2 weeks method"...It's utterly moronic. Maybe T&R isn't perfect, but it's better than the current system, which is actually as stupid as possible.

 

[JV1973]

JV,

Are you aware of any teams that actually had a clean reputation at any time.

For example, the Helvetia team of Paul Koechli had a reputation as a clean team back in the late 80s/90s.

Do you know anything about this team or have you ever come into contact with Koechli who seemed to have a very strong anti-doping ethos.

I have asked around and heard good things.

The one thing I know about that era is that the doping, while happening, was not that effective. That's why you see a mix of riders with good and bad reputations in the late 80's winning races. That slowly slides away, until you get to '94-'95, where everyone pretty much just gives in, as the doping was more effective. Not that anyone in cycling was smarter about doping, just the drug became more effective. Very Effective.

So, without knowing, I'd guess Koechli ran a clean team and won some races in the 80's. But it didn't last into the mid 90's. And he was gone. Sad.

 

[sniper]

I hope so! Good lord that team was a nuclear power plant.

On the Garmin website, in this paragraph about Weltz, the word "experience" is directly followed by a reference to his time at USPS and ONCE. What's the "experience" he brings along from those two periods?

It's just that when I think of Johnny, I associate him with the oldschool, unrepentant segments of the peloton (Riis, Bruyneel, Redant, Lefevere).
But I readily admit that that is an unwarranted prejudice on my part.

 

[carl spackler]

It's a valid question. While VDV, Zab etc. I was well aware of their histories, Allen portrayed himself as "just the coach" to Floyd and not more. He always told me he knew something was going on, but he wasn't a part of it. He said Floyd "shielded" him from it all.

I Have no idea if this is just complete crap or true. I still get conflicting stories. Whatever. Allen was straight with us. He was the biggest proponent of the no needles policy when we indexed that in 2008. He never had access to medical files and certainly not blood test records. He coached our guys. Period. He is not an MD. But I haven't spoken to him since 2009 when he left for Radio Shack. That move gave me the impression that he was a little bit "whichever way the wind blows..."

BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.

JV

Thanks for the answer. Take you at your word.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You're right, that is the attitude. My idea would be simple, you get one chance in a 3-4 week period to say everything. If you lie, and you get caught in that lie by testimony or otherwise, life ban. If you are 100% truthful, amnesty.

If you get caught later on for something else, life ban.

T&R is a way to get all the bad news out, at once. Right now we are doing the "media finds one ex-doper from 8 yrs ago every 2 weeks method"...It's utterly moronic. Maybe T&R isn't perfect, but it's better than the current system, which is actually as stupid as possible.

It seems unlikely that the UCI will move swiftly on this, given their clumsy and now mothballed Independent commission and their poor relationship with Wada, who I believe they have just contacted regarding the T&R. Do you have any idea of a time scale? It seems to be me we are starting a season with the sport under a massive shadow, which isn't anything new, but is very frustrating for the fans who are anxious for change.

It appears from outside the UCI want to obfuscate and delay any change, and the fear is that any change will be a veneer rather than anything meaningful.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hey, sorry, didn't read your question right.

i started taking EPO May 14 in 1999. So, how much it effected my training between May 14 and June 9 (day of Ventoux, I don't know? I consumed about 12,000 units in that time period.

I've read some folks (mainly domestic pros) complaining that EPO has some super long term effect. The data available, plus anecdotal experience would contradict that idea. Basically, as soon as the extra red cells are gone, so is the added performance. In some cases, guys really drop anchor when they come off a cycle. And some never quite make it back.

So, I'm not a huge believer in EPO helping, long term, with training. Myoglobin adjusts to the higher Hb levels, and after some time even the extra red cells don't help as much.

But there have never been controlled studies done on the subject, so who knows...

Maybe the 8% increase on your part wasn't as much as other riders who would get a 20 extra % in red blood cells, or even more. That must be the difference I guess....

Do you not feel focked because of that disadvantage? Maybe you could have been a good stage racer for all we know.

 

[Digger]

Originally Posted by JV1973
It's a valid question. While VDV, Zab etc. I was well aware of their histories, Allen portrayed himself as "just the coach" to Floyd and not more. He always told me he knew something was going on, but he wasn't a part of it. He said Floyd "shielded" him from it all.

I Have no idea if this is just complete crap or true. I still get conflicting stories. Whatever. Allen was straight with us. He was the biggest proponent of the no needles policy when we indexed that in 2008. He never had access to medical files and certainly not blood test records. He coached our guys. Period. He is not an MD. But I haven't spoken to him since 2009 when he left for Radio Shack. That move gave me the impression that he was a little bit "whichever way the wind blows..."

BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.

JV

This drives me nuts...you and I know full well what the truth is here on Lim.

 

[JV1973]

This drives me nuts...you and I know full well what the truth is here on Lim.

Digger, all I'm saying is that different people tell me different stuff on this. I don't know. I don't care! Perhaps you underestimate how much Allen ****ed me off leaving for RS in 2009. The guy who extolled clean racing to me and told me all the horrible stories about Discovery, which made it to IM via Frankie...that guy went and worked for the person he claimed to hate. It's all I can do to be objective here. believe me, it'd be much easier to just call the guy names, etc.

However, that just ain't cool.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

how do you guys know this is really jonathan vaughters?

 

[JV1973]

Maybe the 8% increase on your part wasn't as much as other riders who would get a 20 extra % in red blood cells, or even more. That must be the difference I guess....

Do you not feel focked because of that disadvantage? Maybe you could have been a good stage racer for all we know.

Yeah, who knows. Ive been blessed in this life, I'm not going to ***** about how I only cheated some, but other guys cheated more because of my natural blood levels. I mean, if I was born at 41%, do you think I would have said "No, Dr. DelMoral, only pop me up to 45%, thanks." Doubtful.

I'll just be happy and leave it at that.

 

[JV1973]

how do you guys know this is really jonathan vaughters?

I'd say by the overly glib and arrogant sense of humor. It's like a fingerprint.

But it'd be funny as hell if I weren't.

 

[Stingray34]

Digger, all I'm saying is that different people tell me different stuff on this. I don't know. I don't care! Perhaps you underestimate how much Allen ****ed me off leaving for RS in 2009. The guy who extolled clean racing to me and told me all the horrible stories about Discovery, which made it to IM via Frankie...that guy went and worked for the person he claimed to hate. It's all I can do to be objective here. believe me, it'd be much easier to just call the guy names, etc.

However, that just ain't cool.

Hey JV, you should have had a guest role on Portlandia like Johnny Maher..."eh, it's just a normal red bike." You could have been some sort of spiritual, long-lost brother for Fred Armison.

 

[DirtyWorks]

This drives me nuts...you and I know full well what the truth is here on Lim.

That's as honest an answer I've seen from JV and I'm a JV1973 sceptic. It's the best that can be said until there's more direct statements from former athletes. Which, probably won't happen until athletes are covered by SOL.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yeah, who knows. Ive been blessed in this life, I'm not going to ***** about how I only cheated some, but other guys cheated more because of my natural blood levels. I mean, if I was born at 41%, do you think I would have said "No, Dr. DelMoral, only pop me up to 45%, thanks." Doubtful.

I'll just be happy and leave it at that.

Fair enough, just wanted to point out some cheating is less cheating than other.

So, without knowing, I'd guess Koechli ran a clean team and won some races in the 80's. But it didn't last into the mid 90's. And he was gone. Sad

Legeay is gone, Guimard is gone, Boyer is gone. On the other hand there a numerous doping DS's like Ferretti also gone.

The most problematic is the doping docs that are still around, in the background. How can this sport survive while those mtf'ers will go of the hook time after time? Just look in Spain now.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I'd say by the overly glib and arrogant sense of humor. It's like a fingerprint.

But it'd be funny as hell if I weren't.

how would I know what your fingerprint is. I've never met you.

still my question stands to others. how do we know? I hope it's a troll account that hilarious and typical marks as the clinic people are they all fall for it

 

[Stingray34]

how would I know what your fingerprint is. I've never met you.

You fingerprint everyone you meet? Man, you'd freak out Chuck Norris. Actually, that's kinda cool.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

You're right, that is the attitude. My idea would be simple, you get one chance in a 3-4 week period to say everything. If you lie, and you get caught in that lie by testimony or otherwise, life ban. If you are 100% truthful, amnesty.

If you get caught later on for something else, life ban.

T&R is a way to get all the bad news out, at once. Right now we are doing the "media finds one ex-doper from 8 yrs ago every 2 weeks method"...It's utterly moronic. Maybe T&R isn't perfect, but it's better than the current system, which is actually as stupid as possible.

The problem with that is that it means that all the dirty riders get off scot free. There is no 'break' with the past, there is no real punishment for past sins.

You have to have punishment in there - lets say Riis turns up, says yeah, I doped all my career and I doped everyone who rode for me. What do we get, a round of applause and then he goes back to managing a team.

What about the doping doctors, what about the other DSs, the sponsors, what about the media who turned a blind eye. T & R, has to be surely be more than a rider pitching up, confessing to past sins and going back to how it was before.

The whole point of T & R is that there has to be punishment not blanket amnesty. The whole point of T & R is to punish those who called the shots.

Even though South Africa had T & R, it still meant that Eugene de Kock got 212 years in jail for his crimes.

The aim of T & R is to separate the wheat from the chaff, to work out who were the worst offenders and to punish them, but to moderate the punishment for those who were swept up in the environment.

Armstrong, Ferrari, McQuaid, etc are the de Kock's of cycling.

 

[Parrulo]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=16650

ryo check that thread if you still have doubts. . . .

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

how would I know what your fingerprint is. I've never met you.

still my question stands to others. how do we know? I hope it's a troll account that hilarious and typical marks as the clinic people are they all fall for it

You are the clown here, explain how Thomas Dekker never disputed 'the arrogant ***' story we got out off JV here. Let's talk Dutch then...

Why do you try to disrupt every topic in the clinic?

 

[JV1973]

The problem with that is that it means that all the dirty riders get off scot free. There is no 'break' with the past, there is no real punishment for past sins.

You have to have punishment in there - lets say Riis turns up, says yeah, I doped all my career and I doped everyone who rode for me. What do we get, a round of applause and then he goes back to managing a team.

What about the doping doctors, what about the other DSs, the sponsors, what about the media who turned a blind eye. T & R, has to be surely be more than a rider pitching up, confessing to past sins and going back to how it was before.

The whole point of T & R is that there has to be punishment not blanket amnesty. The whole point of T & R is to punish those who called the shots.

Even though South Africa had T & R, it still meant that Eugene de Kock got 212 years in jail for his crimes.

The aim of T & R is to separate the wheat from the chaff, to work out who were the worst offenders and to punish them, but to moderate the punishment for those who were swept up in the environment.

Armstrong, Ferrari, McQuaid, etc are the de Kock's of cycling.

Oh, for sure. If I ever got caught doping a rider or having complicit knowledge of a rider on my team doping, as management, there should be no amnesty. None. I should be imprisoned.

I'm not cool with amnesty regarding mgmt or enablers. They have the lives of young athletes in their hands.

 

[happychappy]

Why do you try to disrupt every topic in the clinic?

Yeah, well you know, that's just like, your opinion man.

 

[sniper]

Oh, for sure. If I ever got caught doping a rider or having complicit knowledge of a rider on my team doping, as management, there should be no amnesty. None. I should be imprisoned.

I'm not cool with amnesty regarding mgmt or enablers. They have the lives of young athletes in their hands.

You seem rather silent or at least holding back when it comes to Pat.
I understand you can't go full-throttle on the guy, but he is making cycling look farcical beyond recognition.
Do you agree serious change could start right here and now with the removal of Pat?
Should UCI have any guiding role in a T&RC?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yeah, well you know, that's just like, your opinion man.

You might be right on that one man, or not, or maybe you do. Still confused now, back on the wheed I guess.

And, still on topic.