JV talks, sort of

[Mr.38%]

Don't believe what's put out there. get out the stop watch and calculator.

Everybody saw what happened at Planche des Belles Filles, protected leaders were dropped by domestiques. Domestiques who had excellent days for three weeks. Does that count as well?

The only domestique I remember doing comparable things was Floyd, especially his stunt on that stage when LA caught Klöden at the line (2004?).

Doesn't it suck when talented riders are faster than super talented riders?

 

[BroDeal]

What I'm saying is: We will do our part. Already have. But it drives me nuts that I'm expected to go push Robbie Hunter to knock on ADAs door, unsolicited, when there are folks yelling at me "Your team is full of ex-dopers, why can't you be more like Sky? Or Movistar?"

This is why wholesale T&R is the only way out of this mess.

How do you expect T&R to work? How many riders could be expected to come forward for T&R? Where is the motivation or even the self-interest? For riders who have not been caught, which is a huge number, there does not appear to be anything to gain and much to lose. For riders who were caught in the past, how many would give anything other than a weak mea culpa with no information about others? Brailsford has already indicated that he would not want his riders coming forward. There has to be many managers with that same attitude, sort of, "It's fine as long as it is limited and does not touch my team."

 

[Fatclimber]

.....

Anyhow, back to your question: That last 2% that allowed me to go crazy fast? Beyond the dope? I had a nasty breakup w a girlfriend and kinda didn't eat much for like a week, mid/Late April. I lost 2kgs because of that. Which put me down around 59kgs. I never raced that light again.

JV

Oh great, I foresee the sport being riddled with mass quantities of "relationship doping" victims. Team doctors will be replaced with a team gigolo, ruining relationships prior to big events. Maybe you should have left that cat in the bag. (Sorry if you're still sensitive about this subject!)

 

[theyoungest]

Everybody saw what happened at Planche des Belles Filles, protected leaders were dropped by domestiques. Domestiques who had excellent days for three weeks. Does that count as well?

The only domestique I remember doing comparable things was Floyd, especially his stunt on that stage when LA caught Klöden at the line (2004?).

Doesn't it suck when talented riders are faster than super talented riders?

Some people (certainly in the Clinic) seem to have forgotten that half the peloton hit the deck at 60 km/h, the day before the first mountain stage. That has an impact on the fitness of these riders (maybe the fact that most of them didn't recover could even be a sign of cleaner times )

 

[Fatclimber]

?..
Anyway, over the last couple of weeks, in my spare time, I started a long-term project : determine the W/kg for some racers of the past.
...

Nice work! Like the rest, I would very much like to see your updates in the future.

Actually, provided your calculations/contributing factors are accurate, (not questioning that) that information would be book-worthy.

 

[theyoungest]

If he's asked, he will go it. I can't go around knocking on various ADAs saying "hey, we got something for you!!' I just demand that the guys cooperate and are honest, if asked.

End of the day, various ADAs are already leaning on me/our team quite a bit. We're the team that won't BS!! yay!! Easy target. Is cleaning up the past of this sport our sole responsibility? I'll do my part, but it's getting a bit lonely out here! And as you know, I think if every other team instituted policies like ours, well... the whole truth and reconciliation thing would already be happening.

What I'm saying is: We will do our part. Already have. But it drives me nuts that I'm expected to go push Robbie Hunter to knock on ADAs door, unsolicited, when there are folks yelling at me "Your team is full of ex-dopers, why can't you be more like Sky? Or Movistar?"

This is why wholesale T&R is the only way out of this mess.

JV

T&R is a good way to clear the conscience of former dopers, but I struggle to see how this helps the young Dutch guys, for instance, who will be left without a team next year. I can actually understand why in Belgium they'd rather not have such a process take place, that way they'll at least have some sponsors left.

 

[Parrot23]

Slightly off topic, but the premise is the change in Alberto's putative program in recent years:

Jonathan, don't you think Ryder is better suited to the Tour than Giro this year?* Seems to me that with Alberto having "toned down" in recent years, he's just a tad more vulnerable that before--harder time making his attacks stick. Two ascents of Alpe d'Huez. If Alberto fires too many high octane attacks he might be vulnerable. Am thinking the Sky train and a diesel rider like Ryder, LOL, who could hang with it end of a long day. Thinking of Ryder's Stelvio experience; the longer the better....

Thoughts, even just in general? Everyone can be beaten. There's a way to beat Bertie.

(*Here, big props to Canc. who is rumoured to be skipping the Tour to focus on classics. Ryder would do well to consider the Tour; these "defenses" of cycling titles are meaningless to me, because it ain't boxing.)

 

[will10]

Sounded like Ryder was already looking at a Giro - Tour double attempt.

 

[Froome19]

Ryder has always been looking at a Giro - Tour double.
Unfortunately it was scuppered last year so he will have to learn his lesson this year.

But if you are doing something good then why change it?
I think that though Ryder is relatively old the chances he wins the Tour are much less likely than the Giro and defending the Giro would really seal him as a proper GT winner.

 

[Caruut]

Ryder has always been looking at a Giro - Tour double.
Unfortunately it was scuppered last year so he will have to learn his lesson this year.

But if you are doing something good then why change it?
I think that though Ryder is relatively old the chances he wins the Tour are much less likely than the Giro and defending the Giro would really seal him as a proper GT winner.

He is already a proper GT winner, what with having won a GT and all. Doesn't have to prove himself, he should just look at getting the most prestigious result he can. I doubt he will win either, but there's no doubt he could get a high placing in whichever he chooses to go for.

 

[Le breton]

THIS IS FASCINATING. Thanks.

I didn't have an SRM on for Ventoux, but I would say 6.6 would be about right, perhaps a bit low, as Ventoux tends to be windy and the cx might be a bit higher than on other climbs. Also, I had been testing on 15-20 min climbs in more the 6.8 region, prior to race. Mayo was on a newly paved road and an oddly zero wind day. I know, as I was there for OLN to interview Mayo (Phil and Paul don't speak Spanish, oddly enough)..

That's not to say Mayo wouldn't have beaten me, but maybe by a bit less!

But 6.35 vs 6.7 leaves us with a .35 difference or around 5-6%... Which would make sense as my natural hct at this time of year would be 48%. For Ventoux it was doped to 52%. So, an 8% gain in hb mass. This would lead to a 4-6% increase in power at FTP, considering the high density of the blood already (as to say 38% to 42% would lead to a slightly more linear relationship gain, as O2 delivery efficiency is greater, per red cell, in a less crowded blood stream)

This is a great example of why I do rely on numbers to give me an indication of whether doping is happening and whether its effective, more than I rely on rumors etc etc. The rumors can sometimes prove to be correct on IF doping is happening, but whether it's method is effective is another story.

Clearly EPO in 1999 was effective.



JV

I am glad you appreciated my effort

After your Ventoux victory in 1999 I exchanged a few emails with an occasionanal cyclist and fan of yours whom you possibly know, Nat Bostwick from Denver. His name had been mentioned in the newspaper (Dauphiné Libéré) the next day. He used to be a geologist and we had met a few years before in Quito (I think he switched to real estate)!

Anyways, thanks for your power estimate concerning your Ventoux climb.

Possibly in 2001, I remember hearing you (or somebody quoting you) on some radio saying that to climb Alpe d'Huez in around 38 : 00 (ie. like L.A. had done) you needed a VO2 max of around 94 ml ( which was also my own estimate). And this at the end of a hard mountain stage yet!

Considering that the top VO2 values quoted for LA were in the low 80's and well documented ( like in the June 1996 Scientific American), I was pleased to have confirmation of what I had known about him since 1999 ( or even the 1998 Vuelta)

 

[sniper]

From Rabo, to USPS, to Phonak.

JV says Ryder is clean. But with the Biopassport so clearly flawed in 2012, JV is yet to give us a tangible reason why we should take his word for it.

More correct would be to say we don't and can't know if Ryder is clean or not.

Two small notes for which I accept to get slammed:

1. Geert wrote training schedules for Sven. Who wrote Ryder's schedules when he was at Rabo?

2. At the 2004 Olympics, I assume just after leaving Rabo for USPS, Ryder was leading the field and on his way to a gold medal (source wikipedia). He missed out on the gold medal due to a flat tire close to the finish (don't know exactly how close). We know those games weren't all that clean, with Bart Brentjens coming in 3rd, José Antonio Hermida in 2nd.

Obviously none of this is evidence that Ryder's dirty.
The point is: there is very little to assume he's clean, other than JV's word.

 

[Froome19]

He is already a proper GT winner, what with having won a GT and all. Doesn't have to prove himself, he should just look at getting the most prestigious result he can. I doubt he will win either, but there's no doubt he could get a high placing in whichever he chooses to go for.

What I meant is that he will really show he has the goods. Defending a GT, anyone at that is something which not just any GT rider does.

 

[Le breton]

Nice work! Like the rest, I would very much like to see your updates in the future.

Actually, provided your calculations/contributing factors are accurate, (not questioning that) that information would be book-worthy.

Thanks.

book-worthy Unfortunately I know how I am, something else will catch my attention and I will end up being sidetracked for months

But who knows, maybe not this time.

 

[webvan]

Ryder winning the Giro with Wiggins in a decent shape and no accidents? I just don't see that happening, especially with this year's course. Will be interesting to hear what JV says if Ryder gets trounced...

 

[Le breton]

Great post man.

Thanks Caruut.

 

[The Hitch]

He is already a proper GT winner, what with having won a GT and all. Doesn't have to prove himself, he should just look at getting the most prestigious result he can. I doubt he will win either, but there's no doubt he could get a high placing in whichever he chooses to go for.

Every 20 years a legend of the sport retains the Giro

52 53 - Coppi
72-73 Merckx
92-93 Indurain
Only Hejsedal can do 2012 - 2013.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The answer is funny as heck.
Anyhow, back to your question: That last 2% that allowed me to go crazy fast? Beyond the dope? I had a nasty breakup w a girlfriend and kinda didn't eat much for like a week, mid/Late April. I lost 2kgs because of that. Which put me down around 59kgs. I never raced that light again.

JV

You really are a funny guy sometimes, no sarcasm here.

And good at dodging questions too. How much did the EPO attribute in your training? Endulge me on that one.

BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.

JV

I tend to think this is a bit of sour, but I guess you are right on that one, Lim we already discussed in the past.

Pre tour medicals don't exist anymore.

Of course the numbers can be manipulated, but not it you calculate it yourself, as our fine mathematician just did.

Don't believe what's put out there. get out the stop watch and calculator.

And why are they not there anymore? Do you not think that is strange?

Le Breton did a great job, as allways we might say!

Stopwatch and calculator? What about using the eyes? Who is doing what? Putting that in historic perspective?

Thanks for the answers, glad there is another way of communicating than b!tching
[works 2 ways of course]

 

[hrotha]

I'm also curious about how JV sees a T&R process working. I can't see it working unless we're sure the same mistakes won't be repeated immediately afterwards (which basically means unless we can trust the UCI). There's no point in an amnesty if people can then go on to commit the same crimes again. Sure, a non-corrupt UCI wouldn't catch all the cheats, but I always got the feeling the tools currently in place would be much more effective in the fight against doping if used properly and fairly.

There's also the question of the lack of incentive to come forward, which is sort of linked to the above in that amnesty would be the only incentive, but that's not very enticing if you're not likely to get caught anyway. While it's relatively easy for the likes of Grischa Niermann to confess, I don't see how a T&R process would draw out officially untainted people from the "clean" era. What's in it for them? They would taint their reputations for absolutely no gain.

A final problem would be the prevailing attitude in, say, the Spanish peloton. There are virtually no cracks in the omertà. Can a T&R process go on without the Spanish (a large portion of the peloton, and a very successful one) taking part?

 

[Granville57]

BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.

That's actually a very funny typo...













































I think.

 

[The Hitch]

That's actually a very funny typo...













































I think.

On that point

No. I wasn't part of the motorman group. Only the pretty girls get asked to prom.

Was US Postal sticking motors in their bikes

 

[Granville57]

"There must be a way to go faster..."

 

[Alphabet]

Every 20 years a legend of the sport retains the Giro

52 53 - Coppi
72-73 Merckx
92-93 Indurain
Only Hejsedal can do 2012 - 2013.

10chars

 

[blackcat]

Exactly - hard work and strength of mind alone will not get you to the podium of a GT, I think this is something that Armstrong (and others) found very hard to deal with.

but Armstrong always had the hypodermics and saucepans.

he started the alchemy in triathlon.

cav woulda been similar. the way cycling is set up, favoured this athlete type. this psychology type.

interesting case will be how an ascent to the top, may change someone, and what definition of "change" is used. (this is psychology type).

is Wiggins gonna become a Mofo and patron in the Armstrong mould. Because he looks like he is a decent person. How will he leverage his new found power? I am of the postion, that the British track endurance program, never deserved their squeaky reputation through the 2000's. they did what the others did. which made it more hypocritical with the cofidis scandal when they were booted from the tour and vino ejected, and wiggins comments, because he woulda been on a maintenance program then. not a heavy duty program. do they give themselves a pass with this? because if they already think doping is no probs, just the health aspect is a concern http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

then why come out with the personal polemics when a rider like vino or ricco falls foul?

these folks cant even tell the truth to themselves

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Every 20 years a legend of the sport retains the Giro

52 53 - Coppi
72-73 Merckx
92-93 Indurain
Only Hejsedal can do 2012 - 2013.

patani 98/99