JV talks, sort of

[Walkman]

I don't know why we are even talking about LeMond, there is no quantifiable way of comparing him to modern riders.

Yeah, there is. And it's called VO2 MAX. To my knowledge there are only a handful, literally like <5, that has tested as high as Lemond who had a V02 MAX of 94.

There is the swedish XC-skier Sven-Åke Lundbäck who tested at 94.6 in the 1970's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven-Åke_Lundbäck

Then we have Bjørn Dæhlie who tested at 96. I am a bit sceptic about this thought. There are reports saying that he tested at 90 as well.

And Espen Harald Bjerke who also tested at 96 which seems a bit weird thought, since he was barley a mediocre WC XC-skier.

Then there is the wonderkid, the next Greg Lemond, Oskar Svendsen who tested at 97,5!!!

He could be a benchmark for future doping discussions.

 

[D-Queued]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

No, evolution takes generations silly.

To advance "human development" likely takes longer than 25 years.

As for modern training, diet and technology. You are probably right.

He did bring us Ti and Carbon bikes along with aerobars and aero helmets. He even had clip in pedals.

BUT, he never had an 11 gear cogset or carbon cranks. Damn, he didn't even have GPS or Strava segments.

Can you imagine how fast he would be with all that?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

No, evolution takes generations silly.

To advance "human development" likely takes longer than 25 years.

As for modern training, diet and technology. You are probably right.

He did bring us Ti and Carbon bikes along with aerobars and aero helmets. He even had clip in pedals.

BUT, he never had an 11 gear cogset or carbon cranks. Damn, he didn't even have GPS or Strava segments.

Can you imagine how fast he would be with all that?

Dave.

It took Sky less than the 5 years they predicted......

 

[the asian]

It took Sky less than the 5 years they predicted......

They are extraterrestrial. The 25 years applies only to humans.

 

[Benotti69]

They are extraterrestrial. The 25 years applies only to humans.

These extraterrestrials, where do they come from?



They come from Sky............

 

[will10]

JV, if you're still reading - in the run-up to the '99 Tour Postal were going very well in the Route du Sud and the Dauphine. You said you'd kicked out 6.8w/kg in winning the infamous Ventoux ITT. A couple of questions - how big a factor did you think you could've been in that Tour? Was Lance the leader going in or was it a case of the road will decide?

In Tyler's book he talks about the arrangements that he, Lance and Livingstone had to facilitate doping during that Tour, and it seemed strange to me that it seemed you were not part of the plan? i.e. if they were looking to top-up their climbers throughout the Tour, that you weren't involved? I know you crashed out on Passage de Gois but Tyler or anyone else it seems has made any mention of you being part of the '99 motoman group.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

welcome to the clinic...

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Because he's the closest thing to a world-class clean cyclist with verifiable and extrapolable watt/kg and VO2 max figures we have.

exactly and that doesn;t mean a **** because we almost have none of those facts from, other riders. I'm willing to bet someone like herrera had more watt per kg weight than lemond for instance.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Fair point, but I don't think those "upper limit of physiologically possible performance" figures are based on LeMond, either. ~6 W/kg seems to be the magic number in relatively long climbs.

what are relatively long climbs?

quintana won final mountain itt in avenir with over 7 watt per kg weight

 

[Froome19]

You may well be right. The problem is the stratospheric transformation of Chris Froome simply through application of modern diet, technology and training methods suggest that throughout his career prior to the 2011 Vuelta, Chris didn't train, didn't eat and rode a tricycle with a stick through his spokes.

You finally have got it

 

[will10]

You finally have got it

Well we know he wasn't riding a tricycle at the Worlds U23 TT when he took out that commissaire, or when he rode up San Luca sideways, but I can't speak for everything else before August '11 as he was too busy being inconspicuously mid-field, so he wasn't on TV so much.

 

[hrotha]

what are relatively long climbs?

quintana won final mountain itt in avenir with over 7 watt per kg weight

An MTF ITT is not a final climb in a normal stage.

 

[JV1973]

JV, if you're still reading - in the run-up to the '99 Tour Postal were going very well in the Route du Sud and the Dauphine. You said you'd kicked out 6.8w/kg in winning the infamous Ventoux ITT. A couple of questions - how big a factor did you think you could've been in that Tour? Was Lance the leader going in or was it a case of the road will decide?

In Tyler's book he talks about the arrangements that he, Lance and Livingstone had to facilitate doping during that Tour, and it seemed strange to me that it seemed you were not part of the plan? i.e. if they were looking to top-up their climbers throughout the Tour, that you weren't involved? I know you crashed out on Passage de Gois but Tyler or anyone else it seems has made any mention of you being part of the '99 motoman group.

No. I wasn't part of the motorman group. Only the pretty girls get asked to prom.

 

[roundabout]

I thought Rujano with his 8 (?) w/kg was the pinnacle of human evolution.

 

[Caruut]

Fact: no Colombian has ever had less than 5W/kg

 

[pmcg76]

welcome to the clinic...

I have been around here enough to know the score but sometimes what I read on here just blow's my mind in terms of total logic failure.

It is hard to believe that posters are suggesting that no modern cyclist could be capable of matching the power outputs of an athlete from 25 years ago!!

 

[D-Queued]

I have been around here enough to know the score but sometimes what I read on here just blow's my mind in terms of total logic failure.

It is hard to believe that posters are suggesting that no modern cyclist could be capable of matching the power outputs of an athlete from 25 years ago!!

Have you seen his VO2Max?

Know anyone else with one of those?

So, no. He happens to have been extremely unusually genetically gifted.

And, it is unlikely that the gene pool has advanced much in less than one human generation.*

Now, fruit flies over a 25 year period would be another story altogether.

Dave.

*One human generation ~ 35 years.

 

[blackcat]

Any sport will never be entirely clean or entirely credible.
It's unrealistic to expect such.

What can be achieved is an environment where clean athletes have a decent chance of winning and donkeys don't become racehorses.

cycling has had a stud farm ever since it began.

donkeys will always become racehorses. the key is to picking who the donkey is.

the true talent is the bell curve of type A personalities. Armstrong had true talent in being able to channel this psychology into a sport identity.

Cav is another one with this talent.

both would be impressive athletes w/o the gear, with their focus and unremitting need to win. but their native genetic ability, athletic abilty, woulda been a ceiling. as is, hormones = no ceiling.

 

[blackcat]

The minute I start using cute little colored text, just shoot me. Really. i mean that.

touche,

well, how far is columbine from boulder?

 

[hrotha]

It is hard to believe that posters are suggesting that no modern cyclist could be capable of matching the power outputs of an athlete from 25 years ago!!

"No modern cyclist" is a far cry from "entire squads" or "half the peloton".

 

[blackcat]

But the thing is, I'm the best option you've got. If you think I'm the problem, I would stop following the sport. i don't mean that is a self righteous way, just a very pragmatic one.

perhaps, he is suggesting, there is no solution.

that it is a fools errand suggesting such a solution exists.

it is not clean v PED. that is not the available option, there is no option. false dichotomy to suggest there is.

i dont have a solution, i just dont think one exists. when ashendens research indicates the the bp lacks the clarity to discern o2 doping. when you could still carefully juggle testo and hgh supplementation within boundaries, and when not every lab is testing for igf-1 3rd gen.

you are pushing a Sisyphus Boulder. But credit to you for the attempt to tackle this.

 

[Ferminal]

Yeah, there is. And it's called VO2 MAX. To my knowledge there are only a handful, literally like <5, that has tested as high as Lemond who had a V02 MAX of 94.

There is the swedish XC-skier Sven-Åke Lundbäck who tested at 94.6 in the 1970's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven-Åke_Lundbäck

Then we have Bjørn Dæhlie who tested at 96. I am a bit sceptic about this thought. There are reports saying that he tested at 90 as well.

And Espen Harald Bjerke who also tested at 96 which seems a bit weird thought, since he was barley a mediocre WC XC-skier.

Then there is the wonderkid, the next Greg Lemond, Oskar Svendsen who tested at 97,5!!!

He could be a benchmark for future doping discussions.

Will Oskar Svendsen win a GT next year because a few months ago his lab VO2 max better than current GT contenders (as far as we know)?

There is no data on the VO2 max of GT winners at time of their win so obviously it can't be used to compare, even if it was an absolute measure of ability (which many argue it isn't).

 

[meat puppet]

I guess the point is not that the one with the highest VO2max wins or even is expected to win all the time. However, the way I see it VO2max is a ballpark-setting variable that bounds many others such as FTP w/kg from above, and this has been somewhat downplayed in discussions that focus primarily on power. Power at the FTP utilises a certain percentage of the vo2max and anyhow.

FWIW, I tend to agree that it might be a good idea to look at the climb speed / vo2max ratios from pre o2 vector doping era to establish a ballpark baseline for what is believable. The "it was 25 years ago" argument, IMO, does not debunk this idea even if we agree that there have been some advancements in training, equipment, nutrition, etc.

The question then becomes how well individuals can utilise the engine they have. There are of course going to be variations in this ratio among individuals. How significant are they? What needs to be taken into consideration so that the vo2max becomes a meaningful variable, not only a lab score with bragging rights?

 

[martinvickers]

What happens when a naturally talented rider dopes?

Pantani. Or Indurain, take your pick.

 

[martinvickers]

He can just sit on or near the front, cruising, all day. If someone attacks, he can up the tempo a bit with his doms and bring back the attacker. The next day, he can drop people with ease as he's never been stressed, never had to chase anyone down.

And then on the final day TT he can smash all and sundry. By 2+ minutes.

Probably.

But Dear Wiggo, that can't be true, can it, because Wiggins has no particular natural talent, does he? He was just a middle sized fish in the tiny crap track pond, pure grupetto, no?