JV talks, sort of

[the asian]

Bikes, gear and a good diet do not maketh a GT rider of LeMond's ability.

IMO it can help a rider at a slightly lesser level than Lemond's, match his output for a particular race.

OFC you may differ.

 

[trailrunner]

At the same time, he's remarkably quiet on the topic of UCI mismanagement.

Well obviously as a team manager he has to keep relatively quiet on that topic as his team may suffer the same fate as Katusha's and unlike Katusha's such a blow might be the death knell to his team.

I disagree. The reluctance to speak for fear of retribution is what kept doping hidden for so long.

 

[Benotti69]

The Biological Passport is a good concept. It is a deterrent to extensive doping, but it doesn't stop doping altogether.It does have it's flaws which need to be rectified but It's better to have it than not having it at all,

Well obviously as a team manager he has to keep relatively quiet on that topic as his team may suffer the same fate as Katusha's and unlike Katusha's such a blow might be the death knell to his team.

It is a deterrent to what exactly. Armstrongs numbers showed it was no deterrent to him. Who else has the 'favour' of UCI. We all know how he got that 'favour', why not others?

The limited testing shows that the biopassport is hardly effective. A decent specialist should be able to beat it. They have a big window in which to dope. After 10pm at night and before 8am(?) in the morning.

 

[the asian]

It is a deterrent to what exactly. Armstrongs numbers showed it was no deterrent to him. Who else has the 'favour' of UCI. We all know how he got that 'favour', why not others?

The limited testing shows that the biopassport is hardly effective. A decent specialist should be able to beat it. They have a big window in which to dope. After 10pm at night and before 8am(?) in the morning.

At least It is a deterrent to guys who curry no favour with the UCI .

And it's a deterrent to Extensive doping

Some guys have been caught by the Biopassport, though ironically it's mostly the older guys (Pellizotti ,Barredo, Hoste etc), and there are less ridiculous rides like Contador Vs Rasmussen in the Pyrenees or Landis's win in Morzine.

The riders will have to microdose EPO and perhaps use less blood bags than they did before.

 

[veganrob]

Bikes, gear and a good diet do not maketh a GT rider of LeMond's ability.

Very much agree with you here. Power is power, simply put. Technology in bikes does not change that. Wether I am riding a '74 Schwinn or a 2013 Noah, my power numbers will remain the same. The time to get from point A to point B will change but that is all. It is relative.
Advances in training can make up some of the differences for sure, but the difference between Hesjedal or Wiggins to Lemond. No way.

 

[burning]

I thought Thor hit 120 km/h on the descent, it's probably not his numbers

 

[will10]

Will, your boilerplate is absolutely awesome. Keeps me inspired.

Where was this post? Can you get it framed for me? My 40th is June 10th.

It's a quote from Daniel Coyle's Lance book (marketed as Tour de Force here in the UK).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Very much agree with you here. Power is power, simply put. Technology in bikes does not change that. Wether I am riding a '74 Schwinn or a 2013 Noah, my power numbers will remain the same. The time to get from point A to point B will change but that is all. It is relative.
Advances in training can make up some of the differences for sure, but the difference between Hesjedal or Wiggins to Lemond. No way.

Exactly what I think of this power stuff. Or we are just stupid or we are getting fooled big time by the powerfiles stories.

 

[Benotti69]

Exactly what I think of this power stuff. Or we are just stupid or we are getting fooled big time by the powerfiles stories.

Just the old adage of trying to blind people with talk of technology, science, diet, blah blah...........thinking we wouldn't understand that all the above no matter the application cannot turn a non GT rider into a GT winner.

It needs non natural doping to do that.

 

[the asian]

Just the old adage of trying to blind people with talk of technology, science, diet, blah blah...........thinking we wouldn't understand that all the above no matter the application cannot turn a non GT rider into a GT winner.

It needs non natural doping to do that.

Agree with that, but who can be classed as non GT rider among the all rounders is a blurry line.

Are these short stage races specialists, like Westra, Brajkovic, Monfort, ie basically guys who can climb and Time Trial at a decent level but don't seem to have the recovery powers to succeed in GTs relatively clean?,
Are they suffering in the 3rd week because they aren't doping and the so called guys with good recovery like Contador and Schleck are doping, or are they suffering in spite of their doping?
A rider like Hesjedal was a pretty solid all-rounder even though most people including myself didn't believe he could win a GT.
However was it reasonable to classify him as a Non GT contender, because he did have the attributes of a GT contender, ie could climb, could TT.

 

[pmcg76]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

 

[will10]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

You may well be right. The problem is the stratospheric transformation of Chris Froome simply through application of modern diet, technology and training methods suggest that throughout his career prior to the 2011 Vuelta, Chris didn't train, didn't eat and rode a tricycle with a stick through his spokes.

 

[veganrob]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

You raise some valid questions. The problem is after 20+ years of a drug riddled peloton it is impossible to make accurate comparisons. We know Greg was an incredibly gifted athlete and most agree he was not doped so he is used as the benchmark. Rightfully so

 

[Benotti69]

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!

sports science is another word for doping. The last 20+ years have shown that.

I have great respect for LeMond and have defended him on here in the past but despite all his talents and amazing physiology, he never dominated in his era the way the likes of Merckx or Hinault did.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

When LeMond rode a bike professionally, riders got the miles in over the winter then raced to get up to speed. In addition speed training was done behind a scooter or car to get big gears rolling. Today's GT riders 'train' to get up to speed for races. That is the 'science' that makes the difference.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Just the old adage of trying to blind people with talk of technology, science, diet, blah blah...........thinking we wouldn't understand that all the above no matter the application cannot turn a non GT rider into a GT winner.

It needs non natural doping to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE

And JV tells us 'the kids are alright'..............

 

[Ferminal]

I don't know why we are even talking about LeMond, there is no quantifiable way of comparing him to modern riders.

 

[hrotha]

I don't know why we are even talking about LeMond, there is no quantifiable way of comparing him to modern riders.

Because he's the closest thing to a world-class clean cyclist with verifiable and extrapolable watt/kg and VO2 max figures we have.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And JV tells us 'the kids are alright'..............

Maybe he has a 'magic bus'

I do agree on JV with certain things but the big questions are left open.

This is ridiculous, so Greg LeMond is considered the peak of human development and athletes have not progressed in the last 25 years!!!

See Veganrob, and, let's not forget Aldo Sassi's assesments on power. I do take him seriously.

Sports science is a complete hooey and the training of athletes 25 years ago is still as effective as modern methods!!.

It is not complete hooey, of course you can gain due to better training techniques, nutrition and all. Fact remains a lot of riders nowadays are able to reach to the Holy Grail. Even former autobus clients.

I am sure if LeMond had been transported forward 25 years and exposed to modern training, diet & technology, his figures would be much higher as well.

Must say the 380 watts he could produce were impressive enough.

And about his non domination, would some shotgun accident have anything to do with that?

 

[Ferminal]

Because he's the closest thing to a world-class clean cyclist with verifiable and extrapolable watt/kg and VO2 max figures we have.

One lab result or one time up a certain climb is hardly a platform for comparison. Or whatever he said in an interview we are just supposed to take that and accept it.

 

[hrotha]

One lab result or one time up a certain climb is hardly a platform for comparison. Or whatever he said in an interview we are just supposed to take that and accept it.

Hence the "closest thing" bit.

 

[the asian]

Do we have Nibali's numbers from last years' Tour?

 

[Ferminal]

Hence the "closest thing" bit.

Yes so you can't say "these three people on the same team are better than Greg LeMond so they must be doping" with any confidence. No way of knowing if they actually are better and to what degree. Simpler ways of tackling the problem...

 

[hrotha]

Yes so you can't say "these three people on the same team are better than Greg LeMond so they must be doping" with any confidence. No way of knowing if they actually are better and to what degree. Simpler ways of tackling the problem...

Fair point, but I don't think those "upper limit of physiologically possible performance" figures are based on LeMond, either. ~6 W/kg seems to be the magic number in relatively long climbs.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Do we have Nibali's numbers from last years' Tour?

We know Porte pushed Basso to 420watts, the same Porte got Nibali back when he was on an attempt to break, so he would be below the Holy Grail, I guess.