martinvickers
BANNED
-
The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
martinvickers
BANNED
Benotti69 said:
Was Armstrong 2009 not in the rather unique position of being allowed to rejoin the tour without 6 months BP backstory?
No, he was allowed to race the TDU despite not having spent the minimum required time in the OOC testing pool, unrelated to the ABP.
martinvickers
BANNED
meat puppet said:
Race horses' performances, as far as I know are not any faster now than they were 50 years ago.
How about humans? How about cyclists? How about lab equipment for VO2 measurement?
Anyway, over the last couple of weeks, in my spare time, I started a long-term project : determine the W/kg for some racers of the past.
I started with arguably the most outstanding climbing performance of the past 50+ years : Bahamontes' win in the Puy-de-Dôme TT for the 15th stage of the 1959 TdF on July 10th.
1. Federico Bahamontes en 36'15"
2. Gaul à 1'26"
3. Anglade à 3'00"
4. Rivière à 3'37"
5. Anquetil à 3'41"
6. Brankart à 3'59"
7. Saint à 4'01"
8. Huot à 4'17"
9. Mahé à 4'35"
10. Adriaenssens à 4'40"
What is striking is the huge time gap between BAHA and the likes of Gaul, Rivière or Anquetil. 10% faster than the latter!!!
I had to track down the exact course of the race but was lucky to enlist the help of Bernard Piguet - he won Paris-Brest-Paris in 1979 and 1983 - who has lived nearby for many years and has timed himself and others on that climb. Google map was a help, my memories of the place also.
Anyway, this is what I gathered :
Start at 455 meters (+/- a couple of meters) Rue canrobert, Intersection D942.
Finish of course at 1415 m after a little less than 100m of flat road.
Weight : Baha 65 kg
Bike + the rest : I guessed 12 kg
This being just outside "Michelin city" I have to assume that the road in 1959 was already very smooth, unlike Ventoux.
I took Crr = 0,0045
According to weather archives it was a very hot day. For the air density I took 1.09 at the bottom and 0.97 at the top ( Historic note : this is the place where Blaise Pascal showed that the air pressure goes down with altitude).
Near the start there is a short flattish section, but I figured it was short enough to be lumped with the rest of the first 4 kms.
CdA ----If you look at old ina.fr films of Baha you can see that he was almost sitting straight up on his bike.
I took 0.375 m^2 for the climbing sections and 0.34 m^2 for the flatter mid-section.
3 sectors
1) 0 - 4 km D+ = 310m air= 1,06 CdA = 0.375 m^2
2) 4 - 7,5 km D+ = 105 m air = 1,04 CdA = 0,34
3) 7,5 -12,4 km D+ = 545 m air = 1,0 CdA 0 = 0.375
I excluded the last 80 meters or so and reduced his time to 36'05
I also accounted for the start from 0 speed by reducing his time to 35'55" for the calculation.
With these data you get an SRM-like power output of 413 watts, ie 6.35 watts/kg (including a 2.5% transmission loss)
To estimate his VO2 I took 1 litre O2 <==> 78 watts which gives us 81,5 ml/mn.kg.
Now, what about VO2 max? If he was at 90-92% of his max, that would have been 88-90 ml/mn.kg.
Reminder : with 0-days of cycling 68-69 kg Boardman in 1996 did 442 (Keen) watts for 1 hour, ie 6.4-6.5 watts/kg.
I had just about finished my calculations when I read in "Pouvez-vous gagner le Tour" ( Polar - authors Portoleau and Vayer, page 47) that they had totally independently calculated a power output of 407 watts for Baha!
How about the wind?
It so happens that over the last 4.1 kms (4.2 - 0.1) from the toll house at 927 m to the summit, the roads circles around the mountain, and the gradient is a nearly constant 12%.
The split times at that 8.3 km mark was 19'42"
which means that over the last 4.1 km of climbing Baha needed 36'15" (-10sec) - 19'42 = 16'23" ( I exclude the last ~80 m. of flat road).
A calculation of the corresponding power output gives me 413 watts for that last section where the wind could not be a real factor. On that section the power exerted against the air amount only to about 3.5%! So it's really hard to be very wrong.
I insist on this as some forumers like Python from the height of his expertise in the manufacture of power meters look with utter contempt at calculations such as mine.
Doing the same 10 sec subtraction for the last 80 meters, the times needed for the top racers over that 4.1 km section were
Baha 16 : 23
Gaul + 59 sec
Anglade + 2 : 10
Rivière + 2 : 02
Anquetil + 2 : 21
Again excluding the last 80 m. or so, the total energy expenditure for Bahamontes was 898 kJ.
Out the 413 watts,
359 were against gravity, 21 watts account for the road and 33 for the air ( with the 2.5% transmission losses included each time)
You have enough info to estimate the errors on your own.
I gave you plenty of information to destroy my argumentation if you think i am full of ***.
Finally what about VAM?
section 1 at 413 watts over 7.75% slope 1640 m/h
section 2 ..........................3% incline 1035 m/h
section 3 ..........................11.1% slope 1780 m/h
(Note that last section includes 800meters before toll house).
A possibility for error that I can't exclude concerns the last 4.1 km : I don't know if the split time was measured exactly at the toll house or a short distance from it.
Anyway, I have done similar calculations for the Ventoux assuming no wind and got about 6.6 watts/kg for Vaughters which of course means :
1) that I would be extremely interested Jonathan in reading what your own measure /estimate is
2) that on EPO Bahamontes with the shape he was in on July 10th 1959 would have shattered Iban Mayo.
blackcat said:
Exactly - hard work and strength of mind alone will not get you to the podium of a GT, I think this is something that Armstrong (and others) found very hard to deal with.
Le breton said:
THIS IS FASCINATING. Thanks.
I didn't have an SRM on for Ventoux, but I would say 6.6 would be about right, perhaps a bit low, as Ventoux tends to be windy and the cx might be a bit higher than on other climbs. Also, I had been testing on 15-20 min climbs in more the 6.8 region, prior to race. Mayo was on a newly paved road and an oddly zero wind day. I know, as I was there for OLN to interview Mayo (Phil and Paul don't speak Spanish, oddly enough)..
That's not to say Mayo wouldn't have beaten me, but maybe by a bit less!
But 6.35 vs 6.7 leaves us with a .35 difference or around 5-6%... Which would make sense as my natural hct at this time of year would be 48%. For Ventoux it was doped to 52%. So, an 8% gain in hb mass. This would lead to a 4-6% increase in power at FTP, considering the high density of the blood already (as to say 38% to 42% would lead to a slightly more linear relationship gain, as O2 delivery efficiency is greater, per red cell, in a less crowded blood stream)
This is a great example of why I do rely on numbers to give me an indication of whether doping is happening and whether its effective, more than I rely on rumors etc etc. The rumors can sometimes prove to be correct on IF doping is happening, but whether it's method is effective is another story.
Clearly EPO in 1999 was effective.
JV
Would you agree numbers can be manipulated? In due course, we also like numbers, why aren't those numbers been made public? Another one, why is it that the pre - Tour medicals [like VO2max tests] aren't for the grand public anymore? [that is clearly an UCI matter]JV1973 said:
But now a real and direct question to you. Did you not have to train your balls of to come to that Ventoux TT? What was the Holy Grail there? The EPO gave you a boost in the race, but how about in training? If I boost my crit to 52 I will not fly up the Ventoux, that's for sure.
PS: 48 to 52 is something differrent like other riders who have a natural of 41, do you not feel b!ichted sometimes?
I know we shouldn't speculate, but just for the sake of it: if it turns out Sky's 2012 season was related to PEDs (I know the chances are remote, but just hypothetically), wouldn't your reliance on power output data, bloodvalues, etc. come tumbling down like a house of cards? It would certainly show that PEDs, if only marginally, are still an effective way of dominating a season.JV1973 said:
Hats off to you! That's an interesting topic in its own right and I think that sort of historical info would be of critical value as well.Le breton said:
JV1973 said:
What does 'cleaner' mean to you?
Does it mean that the peloton is still doped but the volume of drugs being taken is less than it was in the EPO/USP era? That riders are on the 'light' option rather than the full fat doping regime?
Or
That while some riders and teams are doping to the hilt, many teams and riders are now off the hot sauce?
Cleaner is a little bit like saying 'Daniel Benson is less of a moron, he only said 5 stupid things today instead of 10.' He's still a moron, he's still saying stupid things, and more to the point, if those 5 stupid things are epically stupid, I don't see that it is too much of an improvement.
Clean to me means dope free. I can't say that the sport is getting 'cleaner' when I watch the Vuelta or the TDF and watch Dertie/Saxo and Wiggins/Froome/Sky riding as they did.
Having looked at the numbers - what percentage of the TDF finishers do you think were dope free? Looking at the top 20 and having looked at their numbers what percentage do you think were dope free?
BTW - You never did answer my question about RH and doping at his previous teams.
To add to this - have you spoken to Robbie Hunter about Rabo - has he also been made to speak to the authorities as Dekker has, or will he only have to speak if asked?
Allen Lim
Forgive me if somewhere out there I would be able to find it, but I have never seen a satisfactory answer to why he was working with Garmin, and as recently as 1.5 years ago with VandeVelde and others.
I'm a Garmin fan but this has bugged me. Landis's claims, plus JV's friendship with Landis(so he had to know what Lim did for Landis) and Lim being central to Garmin 2008-2010.
Its not so much an accusation or an innuendo, but rather a legit question. Did Lim come clean to Garmin the way supposedly TD, CVV, DZ and others? There seems to be no explicit discussion of this.
Forgive me if somewhere out there I would be able to find it, but I have never seen a satisfactory answer to why he was working with Garmin, and as recently as 1.5 years ago with VandeVelde and others.
I'm a Garmin fan but this has bugged me. Landis's claims, plus JV's friendship with Landis(so he had to know what Lim did for Landis) and Lim being central to Garmin 2008-2010.
Its not so much an accusation or an innuendo, but rather a legit question. Did Lim come clean to Garmin the way supposedly TD, CVV, DZ and others? There seems to be no explicit discussion of this.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
The answer is funny as heck. Yes, I trained my balls off, had a good 3-4 months with no colds or sickness... I mean, the 15 years of racing a bike and training quite a bit before the Ventoux helped too. 10 day stage races at 18 yrs old.... Junior World Championships... etc. end of the days, in my era, the guys who doped, doped because they had made it to the highest level, clean, from genetics and training. they were the best guys. But... Then, wham, the speed of the whole damn peloton goes nuts from 94-96 and its a case of dope or leave. And most doped. some left. When I look at it, at the highest level, usually the guys who left had wealthy families, a University education, or whatnot. Those who saw cycling as their only way out, stayed. And doped. I didn't have a wealthy family, but I also didn't need a way out. Probably why I doped, won a bit, then retired at 29. Sort of one foot in, one foot out.
Anyhow, back to your question: That last 2% that allowed me to go crazy fast? Beyond the dope? I had a nasty breakup w a girlfriend and kinda didn't eat much for like a week, mid/Late April. I lost 2kgs because of that. Which put me down around 59kgs. I never raced that light again.
JV
carl spackler said:
It's a valid question. While VDV, Zab etc. I was well aware of their histories, Allen portrayed himself as "just the coach" to Floyd and not more. He always told me he knew something was going on, but he wasn't a part of it. He said Floyd "shielded" him from it all.
I Have no idea if this is just complete crap or true. I still get conflicting stories. Whatever. Allen was straight with us. He was the biggest proponent of the no needles policy when we indexed that in 2008. He never had access to medical files and certainly not blood test records. He coached our guys. Period. He is not an MD. But I haven't spoken to him since 2009 when he left for Radio Shack. That move gave me the impression that he was a little bit "whichever way the wind blows..."
BTW - Allen was hardly central. Our best years have been since he left. As i later found, there are better sports scientists. He was just a very good promotor.
JV
JV do you believe that a doctor like Leinders would remain in the sport working as a normal doctor within teams after having being so heavily immersed in doping programmes?
And not if it is possible but rather if it is likely. Association with guys like Ferrari immediately condemn a rider, but would that be the same with all doctors involved in the doping programmes at the time? Another example would OPQS's Ibarguren Taus.
In short. To what extent would you look at this list http://velorooms.com/the-dark-side/the-dodgy-team-staff-thread-a-work-in-progress/ and say that those names cast considerable suspicion on those teams?
And not if it is possible but rather if it is likely. Association with guys like Ferrari immediately condemn a rider, but would that be the same with all doctors involved in the doping programmes at the time? Another example would OPQS's Ibarguren Taus.
In short. To what extent would you look at this list http://velorooms.com/the-dark-side/the-dodgy-team-staff-thread-a-work-in-progress/ and say that those names cast considerable suspicion on those teams?
Mrs John Murphy said:
If he's asked, he will go it. I can't go around knocking on various ADAs saying "hey, we got something for you!!' I just demand that the guys cooperate and are honest, if asked.
End of the day, various ADAs are already leaning on me/our team quite a bit. We're the team that won't BS!! yay!! Easy target. Is cleaning up the past of this sport our sole responsibility? I'll do my part, but it's getting a bit lonely out here! And as you know, I think if every other team instituted policies like ours, well... the whole truth and reconciliation thing would already be happening.
What I'm saying is: We will do our part. Already have. But it drives me nuts that I'm expected to go push Robbie Hunter to knock on ADAs door, unsolicited, when there are folks yelling at me "Your team is full of ex-dopers, why can't you be more like Sky? Or Movistar?"
This is why wholesale T&R is the only way out of this mess.
JV
Froome19 said:
I think if you pay him enough to tend to ingrown toenails, he will. Management's decision making is first priority. Hope they have correct priorities. Never met the guy, so I don't know what his deal is.
Since I cannot expect you to name the worst teams: in your opinion which World Tour team has the next best policies (after Garmin)? Or rather which teams do you see as an ally?JV1973 said:
roundabout said:
All this is pretty accurate. One thing I take exception to is the "no blackmail"....dude, I have those emails. I published them. It sure felt like blackmail and read like blackmail to me. But then, maybe I'm just too sensitive.
Is that not reactive rather than proactive? I mean providing omerta holds then you should be fine because no one will get dropped in the **** so your guys won't have to 'fess up.
It seems to me that we have a situation - where the investigation is already underway, if we really want clean racing then riders need to go before being asked by the ADA.
What do you consider T & R to be and to consist of? As someone who works on T & R what the UCI (and the cycling media) considers T & R to be, is a million miles away from what I understand T & R to be.
BTW - what does cleaner refer to? What percentage of the peloton would you estimate to be dope free?
It seems to me that we have a situation - where the investigation is already underway, if we really want clean racing then riders need to go before being asked by the ADA.
What do you consider T & R to be and to consist of? As someone who works on T & R what the UCI (and the cycling media) considers T & R to be, is a million miles away from what I understand T & R to be.
BTW - what does cleaner refer to? What percentage of the peloton would you estimate to be dope free?
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Pre tour medicals don't exist anymore.
Of course the numbers can be manipulated, but not it you calculate it yourself, as our fine mathematician just did.
Don't believe what's put out there. get out the stop watch and calculator.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Il Lombardia 2024, one day monument, October 12, farewell to Domenico Pozzovivo- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 880
-
World Championships 2024: Men's Road Race (September 29)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 28K
-
-
Coppa Bernocchi Oct 7/Tre Valli Varesine Oct 8/Gran Piemonte Oct 10- Started by Berniece
- Replies: 286
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 11K
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 21K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram