JV talks, sort of

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Do you think it is an accident that Garmin have no Italians and only 1 Spanish rider? IMO if I were JV I would 1) be very worried about them being involved in a scandal and 2) I'd be very doubtful of their ability to stay off the hot sauce.

Strange assumption I must say. Italians/Spanjards have a history for being in home teams. It is unusual guys like Contador/Rodriquez riding for abroad teams, but look at them: they brought a real armada with them. Pay for Contador and you get 3 man in bonus.

25 years ago Italians wouldn't hardly be crossing the borders for classics, homegrown races were much more important to them. Spanish even worse we must say, but hey, what does a little Spanjard has to to in Roubaix?

The doping issue in your post is interesting since 7 riders at Garmin 2013 actually have a doping past or are at high suspicion to have one.

That said, Garmin does not have the budget for grand European stars, if there are any real stars that is in Italy/Spain left on the market.

 

[Benotti69]

. Most of his team are Anglophone Time Trialists.

I remember he said on this forum that he turned down the opportunity to sign Tondo because he connected the dots and felt he wasn't clean, but later upon learning Tondo's outing of a drug ring, he very much regretted the decision.

So yes, it's obvious that he's extremely hesitant on signing Spanish & Italian riders, Koldo Fernandez being the only exception.

JV chased Contadope.....bet he is glad Dertie went to a full juice team and not a watered down one.

 

[pmcg76]

I thought he was based in Monaco.

Not unless he moved which would be strange, he was based in Girona during the season.

 

[the asian]

JV chased Contadope.....bet he is glad Dertie went to a full juice team and not a watered down one.

Must be pleased he bailed out.

Escaped the possibility of his team losing WT status

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Strange assumption I must say. Italians/Spanjards have a history for being in home teams. It is unusual guys like Contador/Rodriquez riding for abroad teams, but look at them: they brought a real armada with them. Pay for Contador and you get 3 man in bonus.

25 years ago Italians wouldn't hardly be crossing the borders for classics, homegrown races were much more important to them. Spanish even worse we must say, but hey, what does a little Spanjard has to to in Roubaix?

The doping issue in your post is interesting since 7 riders at Garmin 2013 actually have a doping past or are at high suspicion to have one.

That said, Garmin does not have the budget for grand European stars, if there are any real stars that is in Italy/Spain left on the market.

No room for a Spanish or Italian climbing domestique? Or an Italian classics specialist?

In the case of Italian riders - there is always the risk that CONI or the local prosecutor is going to open up a case on any of the Italian teams. It is really 'busting roulette' there. Sign a Lampre or a Leaky guy and lo and behold 3 months later they are being hauled up before the beak.

You think - hey Cunego looks good, very anti-doping, and then the next thing you know, the plod has a wire tap of Cunego order 3 litres of blood.

Puerto, Galgo etc etc show that although there the investigations don't get anywhere there is always the risk that plod will kick down the door of some doctor and the riders name will be all over the pages of AS before you can say 'PR spin'.

The question is - did JV think that Rabo would blow up this way and would he have signed the Rabo riders if he had known that the dirt was coming out?

Maybe JV can explain why he doesn't sign Italians or Spanish riders (excepting Koldo).

On that note - given Spanish cycling and its unreconstructed omerta - how did the anti-doping/disclosure discussions go with Koldo? Was/is he as much work as Dekker?

 

[the asian]

Koldo joined EE in 2004. I think it was the last year of Losa or the year which Dr Ibarguren was at EE.
Don't think there will be any investigations on Euskaltel.
Whether he was left off the sauce due to being a sprinter, hard to tell.

 

[L'arriviste]

Not saying MJM confused them (I very much doubt (s)he did) but caution with that 'unusual' name: Koldo Gil was on Liberty Seguros, not Koldo Fernandez who, as the asian says, was on EE his whole career before Garmin.

EE has had its own problems in the past anyway, of course.

 

[carl spackler]

You seriously believe that? If you do then the world is much darker place then you imagine it to be. Not everyone is motivated by profit perhaps, but a very large proportion are.

I have few illusions about the darkness of the world. You are misinterpreting what I'm saying. Solely was the key word in my post. Sure people care about profits, but there are always other considerations. Whats moral, legal, what you like/are willing to do. Even the most cold blooded people have their reasons beyond profit. Power comes to mind as a motive, among others.

If there is anything nefarious in JV's motivational closet I'd say its potentially power more that profit.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No room for a Spanish or Italian climbing domestique? Or an Italian classics specialist?

Could also be a budget reason. Garmin aren't that big you must know.

For the Classics they have van Summeren/Maaskant/Dekker/Nuyens imo. No true top, but again, no budget.

On the climbing domestique part I guess it is the same, I bet Caruso/Capecchi cost a lot more than the guys at Garmin now.

And maybe vaughters is an anglophile as wel...

In the case of Italian riders - there is always the risk that CONI or the local prosecutor is going to open up a case on any of the Italian teams. It is really 'busting roulette' there. Sign a Lampre or a Leaky guy and lo and behold 3 months later they are being hauled up before the beak.

You think - hey Cunego looks good, very anti-doping, and then the next thing you know, the plod has a wire tap of Cunego order 3 litres of blood.

Would that not be the case with Belgian/Dutch/German riders? But I would like to see Pinotti or Cunego at Garmin for that matter.

Puerto, Galgo etc etc show that although there the investigations don't get anywhere there is always the risk that plod will kick down the door of some doctor and the riders name will be all over the pages of AS before you can say 'PR spin'.

The question is - did JV think that Rabo would blow up this way and would he have signed the Rabo riders if he had known that the dirt was coming out?

To be fair to the Rabo riders of now, they seem not to be involved in the dirt, or at least the riders that came in in 2009, when Gertje L. 'was let go'. Do not believe it 100% of course.

And, let us just guess Dekker was open to Vaughters when he signed him, that would explain something on Rabo?


Valid questions MJM.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I guess only JV can explain why he doesn't sign Spanish or Italians.

My stab in the dark is that it is because he thinks that they carry a bigger risk of doping/being implicated than riders on other teams. There seem to be more scandals in Spain and Italy than in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc

It is significant that many of the dodgier teams that the riders rode for are defunct and perhaps less likely to be subject to investigation. ie Gerol, Phonak

 

[skidmark]

I guess only JV can explain why he doesn't sign Spanish or Italians.

My stab in the dark is that it is because he thinks that they carry a bigger risk of doping/being implicated than riders on other teams. There seem to be more scandals in Spain and Italy than in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc

It is significant that many of the dodgier teams that the riders rode for are defunct and perhaps less likely to be subject to investigation. ie Gerol, Phonak

I suppose that one could also argue, if you think that those two cultures have more ingrained ties to doping than others, that those riders are less interested in riding for a team that has fairly rigorous methods to attempt to ensure its riders are clean. It might be a bad move not only from a Garmin-PR standpoint but from a rider standpoint, to move to Garmin and get caught for doping. Better to move to a non-MPCC team altogether.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I guess only JV can explain why he doesn't sign Spanish or Italians.

My stab in the dark is that it is because he thinks that they carry a bigger risk of doping/being implicated than riders on other teams. There seem to be more scandals in Spain and Italy than in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc

It is significant that many of the dodgier teams that the riders rode for are defunct and perhaps less likely to be subject to investigation. ie Gerol, Phonak

I remember before that JV said he would like an Italian rider and had tried to sign some. He mentioned Pinotti at one point.
As for Spanish riders - well he did inquire about Contador.......

The reality appears that there is limited space on JVs team and he does not have a massive budget. He will gravitate towards some older Anglo/US riders because he knows them and even raced with some.
After that he looking at finding new (cheap!) talent that he can develop.
Even though it sounds like a native Chicago name Navardauskas is in fact Lithuanian

 

[DirtyWorks]

..Pay for Contador and you get 3 man in bonus...

Maybe I'm reading that post wrong, but riders like Contador are a package. The team that hires Contador hires the domestiques Contador brings/wants.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Maybe I'm reading that post wrong, but riders like Contador are a package. The team that hires Contador hires the domestiques Contador brings/wants.

That is what I meant, damn my English

 

[Magnus]

i couldn't care less if the overall quantity of doping is less at Sky than it was at USPS

So you don't think rider health is an issue?

 

[sniper]

So you don't think rider health is an issue?

Bit of a cheap shot, Magnus.
I was assessing the degree of cheating.
If at all they dope less, it is not out of fair play. It's to avoid a scandal.

imo, if Sky would turn out to be doping, the degree of cheating would seem as severe as or even severer than in the case of USPS.
If they would turn out to be doping, we would be forced to conclude that the preparedness to lie, cover up, and fool the fans, has reached levels previously unknown to cycling.

 

[Froome19]

So you don't think rider health is an issue?

Nice......

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I guess only JV can explain why he doesn't sign Spanish or Italians.

My stab in the dark is that it is because he thinks that they carry a bigger risk of doping/being implicated than riders on other teams. There seem to be more scandals in Spain and Italy than in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc

It is significant that many of the dodgier teams that the riders rode for are defunct and perhaps less likely to be subject to investigation. ie Gerol, Phonak

Did you see the single day testing he applied to a French rider - who had a cloud of suspicion over his results - to determine said rider was clean?

One single day's testing and *tick* clean, was applied. A joke of a protocol.

Far easier to believe it was *tick* full appearance of clean.

 

[the asian]

]Did you see the single day testing he applied to a French rider - who had a cloud of suspicion over his results - to determine said rider was clean?
[/B]
One single day's testing and *tick* clean, was applied. A joke of a protocol.

Far easier to believe it was *tick* full appearance of clean.

Christophe Le Mevel?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Christophe Le Mevel?

Actually it was a rider from a French amateur team. He detailed the test in this thread somewhere.

Ramunas Navardauskas

 

[Netserk]

Actually it was a rider from a French amateur team. He detailed the test in this thread somewhere.

Ramunas Navardauskas

He isn't French

 

[Dear Wiggo]

He isn't French

Yes, which is why I reposted, and mentioned his name, with an "actually" - by way of correction.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Well of course.
But I was assessing the degree of cheating.
If at all they dope less, it is not out of fair play. It's to avoid a scandal.

imo, if Sky would turn out to be doping, the degree of cheating would seem as severe as or even severer than in the case of USPS.
If they would turn out to be doping, we would be forced to conclude that the preparedness to lie, cover up, and fool the fans, has reached levels previously unknown to cycling.

And oxygen vector doping gives Hein the ability to orchestrate it with great confidence. I think we're there already with the TdF and Olympics. I don't know what to think about the 99.99% of the race calendar outside those two events.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He isn't French

Well there you go.......just shows that the Biological Passport doesn't work when you can't even work out the nationality.
Boom boom.

 

[Benotti69]

So you don't think rider health is an issue?

The DSs dont, the doctors dont, the federations and the riders themselves dont but hey the fans must!