JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

And I grow a bit tired of guys whose doping has given them opportunities in the sport which they frankly wouldn't have had if they'd competed cleanly. Just sayin'...

BTW, I don't know who these domestic pros are putting out 4.75 w/kg, but they certainly aren't at the point end of any races with a hill in them. Fact is, there are guys roughly your age with as much or more talent than you who've had no where near the career opportunities you've have, because they haven't been willing to dope. And they have a right to be pi$$ed about it. Some of them are annoying about it, like BJ-M, others like Bajadali have just taken it in stride, and some like Willett just walked away...but there are guys out there who were good enough and lost careers to guys like you. You've profited from the opportunities that your dope-fuelled career provided to you (and yes, I realize you walked away and started from a pretty humble beginning. Still, the name recognition and part Euro experience play a part). So, I think you should try to understand that bitterness a little more and mock it a little less.

Because perspective is important, keep in mind that I'm not speaking from a place of bitterness myself. I've had more opportunities than I've even wanted, and I'm good with where I am; but there are guys who were genuinely screwed. And they're putting out a lot more than 4.75 w/kg...

While I see your point and agree with you in concept, I just have not seen many examples of this. Darren Baker? Yes. Absolutely. He would have finished top 10 in the TdF..... But, even the guys you mention, I just don't agree. I watched CVV, Zabriskie, Lance, George race early on, clean. They were a different talent league than these guys. Just my opinion. You can say I'm wrong. I'm ok with that, but it won't change my opinion.

Now, to the second point 4.75w/kg isn't as low as you think then using the test protocol that we do, which is 10 minute steps at .5/w/kg. Top guys take 1 hour 30mins to reach failure. Ive seen guys that are supposed to have a 5.5w/kg FTP on standard testing methods (4mins/50w) not make it to 5.0 on our version, much less have an FTP that high.

Our version is more like what you can actually do for 30mins-45mins at the end of a hard stage.

I am very sorry if you feel this is condescending. It isn't supposed to be. But it's hard to not come off that way when my true opinion is as I stated above.

My whole job is to judge and figure out talent. I live and die by it. So, I gotta stick to my guns. Sorry.

 

[JV1973]

Go to the UserCP link at the top of the page. On the left hand nav column there is an "edit ignore list" link. You just add usernames of members you want to ignore.

Sweet! Done and done. Thanks.

 

[JV1973]

And I grow a bit tired of guys whose doping has given them opportunities in the sport which they frankly wouldn't have had if they'd competed cleanly. Just sayin'...

BTW, I don't know who these domestic pros are putting out 4.75 w/kg, but they certainly aren't at the point end of any races with a hill in them. Fact is, there are guys roughly your age with as much or more talent than you who've had no where near the career opportunities you've have, because they haven't been willing to dope. And they have a right to be pi$$ed about it. Some of them are annoying about it, like BJ-M, others like Bajadali have just taken it in stride, and some like Willett just walked away...but there are guys out there who were good enough and lost careers to guys like you. You've profited from the opportunities that your dope-fuelled career provided to you (and yes, I realize you walked away and started from a pretty humble beginning. Still, the name recognition and part Euro experience play a part). So, I think you should try to understand that bitterness a little more and mock it a little less.

Because perspective is important, keep in mind that I'm not speaking from a place of bitterness myself. I've had more opportunities than I've even wanted, and I'm good with where I am; but there are guys who were genuinely screwed. And they're putting out a lot more than 4.75 w/kg...

But, just to clear, I hear you. Point taken. I'm just arguing talent, not your point.

 

[rata de sentina]

Bahahahahhahahahahaa...

I think JV seems to have accurately taken the measure of his interlocutor, at least in this instance. You can rest easy in the satisfaction that you have rendered that horse significantly more deceased than it already was.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

My evidence is simply I asked Francesa: "why do all these pre race scores show high and then it immediately drops upon first in race test?" Her answer "Yes, I know, it's a problem with many riders. We don't know why, but we are looking into it."

I don't have any more evidence than that. So, go ask her. Go on!

If you prove me wrong, I will resign from my job and credit you.

All which pre-race scores? Are you saying, yet again, that you saw a bunch of pre-race scores that were high?

 

[techknowgn]

I watched CVV, Zabriskie, Lance, George race early on, clean. They were a different talent league than these guys. Just my opinion. You can say I'm wrong. I'm ok with that, but it won't change my opinion.

I get where you're coming from, but guys like Lance, you weren't on his team to start, so unless he told you specifically when he started doping, which he hasn't made public, how sure are you he and others were clean when you first saw them? Im not pointing out CVV or DZ specifically, I just think with all the stories that have come out about Lance, finding the beginning seems harder than I first throught it would be. 2 years ago, I would never have believed he was doping during his teens in triathlon. Now, Im not so sure that isnt the case, but you likely know more than I. Which is why Im asking.

 

[JV1973]

I get where you're coming from, but guys like Lance, you weren't on his team to start, so unless he told you specifically when he started doping, which he hasn't made public, how sure are you he and others were clean when you first saw them? Im not pointing out CVV or DZ specifically, I just think with all the stories that have come out about Lance, finding the beginning seems harder than I first throught it would be. 2 years ago, I would never have believed he was doping during his teens in triathlon. Now, Im not so sure that isnt the case, but you likely know more than I. Which is why Im asking.

Sorry, I should be more specific. I meant when we were like 16-18 yrs old.

 

[JV1973]

Sorry, I should be more specific. I meant when we were like 16-18 yrs old.

And, I just don't think he was doping back then. I've known most of these guys for most of my adult life. Now, you can tell me I'm wrong, I'm a lair, I'm naive, I'm an idiot... But I'm just expressing my opinion based on my observations over my 20 yrs in the sport. I'm not saying I know I'm right. I'm saying what my opinion is.

 

[Jeremiah]

And, I just don't think he was doping back then. I've known most of these guys for most of my adult life. Now, you can tell me I'm wrong, I'm a lair, I'm naive, I'm an idiot... But I'm just expressing my opinion based on my observations over my 20 yrs in the sport. I'm not saying I know I'm right. I'm saying what my opinion is.

I heard 1987.

 

[techknowgn]

And, I just don't think he was doping back then. I've known most of these guys for most of my adult life. Now, you can tell me I'm wrong, I'm a lair, I'm naive, I'm an idiot... But I'm just expressing my opinion based on my observations over my 20 yrs in the sport. I'm not saying I know I'm right. I'm saying what my opinion is.

That's all I was asking for. None of us can be absolutely sure, but your experience trumps mine. I will be interested to hear what Rick Crawford has to say when he finally climbs out from whatever rock he's currently hiding under though...

 

[42x16ss]

All which pre-race scores? Are you saying, yet again, that you saw a bunch of pre-race scores that were high?

No, JV's saying Francesca Rossi said she saw a whole lot of pre-race scores that were high and he asked about them.

Edit: That's how I read it

 

[sniper]

Who's Francesca Rossi?
I'm confused.
JV should be welcoming additional scrutiny.

 

[sniper]

JV, any ideas who Tyler was referring to?
In case you didn't read it: in a recent interview he's speaking about a "prominent team leader" who went about bullying Rock Race riders in 2008.

And what do you make of the fact that Tyler implicates Cancellara as a Fuentes client? Cancellara never came clean about his past. Should we be concerned that he may have doped also after 2008, perhaps even up to present? Or should we content ourselves with the idea that even if he dopes, it won't help him to beat the clean riders? (same for Vino: never came clean. should we be concerned about his 2012 performance? could doping have given him the edge at the olympics? you don't seem at all concerned, that's why I ask)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who's Francesca Rossi?
I'm confused.
JV should be welcoming additional scrutiny.

For such a short post it reveals so much.


The last part is true - JV should welcome additional scrutiny.
The sport continues to go from one crisis to another, yet people still want to believe or support clean sport. Science, watts, etc can often go over peoples heads and it relies on old fashion trust and instinct.

JV is in a prominent role and has experienced all sides.
So, yes he should be scrutinized - but he also should be respected, whether one agrees with his opinion or not, as he does not post anonymously and he does take questions but mostly because he actually indulges people who don't even know simple basic facts like who Francesca Rossi is.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Who's Francesca Rossi?
I'm confused.
JV should be welcoming additional scrutiny.

She was the director of the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation, earlier in her career she worked at the WADA lab in Rome, and spent some time with the IAAF anti-doping programs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

No, JV's saying Francesca Rossi said she saw a whole lot of pre-race scores that were high and he asked about them.

Edit: That's how I read it

When he first mentioned this "everyone tested high", it was backed up by his story of talking to other team doctors at the time and hearing the same story from them.

Rossi came much, much later in the piece.

As for, "ask her and if she doesn't corroborate blah blah blah". Frankly that's disingenuous. As if Rossi is going to talk about BP values to Joe Bloggs off the street. Right.

 

[sniper]

For such a short post it reveals so much.


The last part is true - JV should welcome additional scrutiny.
The sport continues to go from one crisis to another, yet people still want to believe or support clean sport. Science, watts, etc can often go over peoples heads and it relies on old fashion trust and instinct.

JV is in a prominent role and has experienced all sides.
So, yes he should be scrutinized - but he also should be respected, whether one agrees with his opinion or not, as he does not post anonymously and he does take questions but mostly because he actually indulges people who don't even know simple basic facts like who Francesca Rossi is.

point being: i don't know her. nor do you, for that matter.
so go on, contact her.
again, jv should welcome more scrutiny rathre than dismiss it.

the burden of providing some tangible proof of clean(er) cycling, imo, lies not on/with the fans. but you cleary think differently (cf. your previous post asking Dear Wiggo for evidence).

 

[techknowgn]

When he first mentioned this "everyone tested high", it was backed up by his story of talking to other team doctors at the time and hearing the same story from them.

Rossi came much, much later in the piece.

As for, "ask her and if she doesn't corroborate blah blah blah". Frankly that's disingenuous. As if Rossi is going to talk about BP values to Joe Bloggs off the street. Right.

]

Honestly, it's not disingenuous. You wouldn't believe how easy I've found it to get information regarding anti-doping from those involved, if you're asking in an honest and non-accusatory way. The only people who genuinely don't want to talk about it are those who are doing it wrong. World Triathlon Corp is a primary example. their CEO must study everything McQuaid says and attempts to memorize it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

point being: i don't know her. nor do you, for that matter.
so go on, contact her.
again, jv should welcome more scrutiny rathre than dismiss it.

Actually, the point being is you had no idea who she is.

Because you are shy and reserved and would only contact people that you "know", how long and well do you know JV?

the burden of providing some tangible proof of clean(er) cycling, imo, lies not on/with the fans. but you cleary think differently (cf. your previous post asking Dear Wiggo for evidence).

JV provided an answer to DW, more than once. DW appears to insist that JV is wrong, now it's up to DW to show that.

 

[sniper]

Actually, the point being is you had no idea who she is.

Because you are shy and reserved and would only contact people that you "know", how long and well do you know JV?


JV provided an answer to DW, more than once. DW appears to insist that JV is wrong, now it's up to DW to show that.

let's focus on the part where we agree: we agree that JV's claim of clean(er) cycling needs to be scrutinized. Some have already started the process. You're running a bit behind, with all due respect.

And recall, it's not about JV. It's about the message of clean(er) cycling, a new generation, a post-2008 era, etc., which I think is not only misleading, but also reactionary and hence counterproductive.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

let's focus on the part where we agree:

You mean lets skip past where you don't know what you are on about? Sure.

we agree that JV's claim of clean(er) cycling needs to be scrutinized. Some have already started the process. You're running a bit behind, with all due respect.

And recall, it's not about JV. It's about the message of clean(er) cycling, a new generation, a post-2008 era, etc., which I think is not only misleading, but also reactionary and hence counterproductive.

But you are the one to "mislead" it.
You yourself have agreed that the sport is cleaner. Which is a statement of fact.

What you then do is trawl back to selectively quote people out of context and make up wild theories. Quite frankly your rubbish is far more counterproductive towards "the cause".

 

[sniper]

You mean lets skip past where you don't know what you are on about? Sure.


But you are the one to "mislead" it.
You yourself have agreed that the sport is cleaner. Which is a statement of fact.

What you then do is trawl back to selectively quote people out of context and make up wild theories. Quite frankly your rubbish is far more counterproductive towards "the cause".

nice, constructive reply, full of content.
but fair enough, if you prefer patting jv on the back every chance you get and stepping in his shoes whenever he's out of arguments, keep it up.

 

[blackcat]

All which pre-race scores? Are you saying, yet again, that you saw a bunch of pre-race scores that were high?

technical instruments need to be recalibrated when testing scores are high dummie. George Orwell 101.

Recalibrated instruments will give accurate readings

 

[blackcat]

Ryder may or may not have doped at these other teams. If he did, he may or may not have come clean with JV.

That does not mean, however, that JV would not be aware of any such doping, if it occurred. If he did dope before Garmin, there are likely more than one or two people that know about that.

I cannot speak for him, of course, but you may presume too much to think JV would not know.

Dave.

both rode on the same year on domestic Healthnet? no?

 

[mastersracer]

JV, any ideas who Tyler was referring to?
In case you didn't read it: in a recent interview he's speaking about a "prominent team leader" who went about bullying Rock Race riders in 2008.

And what do you make of the fact that Tyler implicates Cancellara as a Fuentes client? Cancellara never came clean about his past. Should we be concerned that he may have doped also after 2008, perhaps even up to present? Or should we content ourselves with the idea that even if he dopes, it won't help him to beat the clean riders? (same for Vino: never came clean. should we be concerned about his 2012 performance? could doping have given him the edge at the olympics? you don't seem at all concerned, that's why I ask)

Where did Hamilton make that implication?