JV talks, sort of

[ElChingon]

I find all of the hooray and attaboys ridiculous about Vaughters, and every other cyclist who admits later, after their career is over, how they doped and then admit to it.

Doesn't take much character to admit it once you are caught, or after you competitive days are over.

Real character is to avoid the temptation to begin with and not dope at all.

I tend to agree. He waits till its all about to come out whether he likes it or not (that's officially coming out USADA case). Waits till the devil is shackled (if only verbally) so to speak and the UCI is back pedaling or to busy to come by a knocking or mention their new rules to him (which they the UCI has yet to apply to any team, officially).

Then to top it off, how does he face Millar to discuss why he's not doing any time and Millar even spent some time in a French Jail and his two year ban. Will the young riders then think, "as long as I keep my mouth shut, its all OK, it worked for Johnny V and look now he's a DS of a ProTour team! He didn't do any time, no ban not fuss.". Yes, the great examples keep on coming.

 

[ChrisE]

Chris, you're assuming doping is an all-or-none affair, either that it occurs at a level that makes it impossible for a clean rider to win, or that it doesn't occur at all.

The view of many today--and it may not be correct, but it does have some support in power data on climbs--is that doping continues, but to a lesser extent, primarily because of the passport. The passport doesn't prevent riders from raising their HT, but arguably it does make it more difficult to raise it to the degree that was possible prior to the passport. If the doping edge is significantly less than it used to be, it improves the chances of clean riders. It's also conceivable that fewer riders dope than before, because some may be sufficiently worried about getting caught that they decide it's not worth taking the risk.

Again, I emphasize no one knows for sure, but Vaughters' position is not logically untenable as you imply.

That is what he implies after speaking out of both sides of his mouth. My comment is about what he is doing is not furthering the fight against doping one bit, and his schtick is illogical as I have stated. The article a pity party, and as I stated it would not surprise me one bit if the USADA issue did not spur this on.

I do agree, and believe I have stated in this forum, that doping is less prevelent today IMO. When will the day come when JV stops touting his "clean" team over the "unclean" ones?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And you said upthread that all didn't know it. Is it possible for sport to change without making a cynical public even more cynical, further painting cycling in a bad light while doped up 300 lb linemen running sub 5 40's get cheered wildly on Sundays?

Why don't you take that to an NFL forum and rattle their cage? This is a cycling forum. And contrary to your point, open and honest admissions actually do the opposite of making people more cynical. See, the doping that was happening was happening during a time when "I am really, really super sad (frowny face) that you people don't believe in miracles and the wonderful things these athletes are doing here at the Tour de France (pronounce the de as dee like Bob Roll)" was what was said about doping. People don't like to be lied to, and having the truth come out makes people more sure that these same people who are admitting their past doping will continue to be open and honest (as opposed to closed and forcefully imposing a code of silence) in the future. You aren't a cynic; you just like to show an air of intellectual superiority in your typical stentorian manner on any occasion you can.

 

[thehog]

First, Chapeau JV.

Second, guys - This op-ed was published in the NYTs on the day of the Olympic closing ceremonies. And in it JV name drops other sports. Giving that sort of context to the larger 'doping in sports' conversation will surely move the game on more quickly than a detailed admission about what color his socks were when he first pushed the needle into his arm.

Third, Chapeau JV.

The real scoop is getting the NY Times to allow him to write an "unedited" piece. Getting in the NYTimes is one mountain to climb. Them allowing you to write your own story without them cutting it down or adding in their own text is remarkable. Kudos right there.

Not even a backwater cycling mag would allow that type of freedom.

The story not being dragged back to Lance was probably key in doing it in this way.

I've been trying to get NYTimes to write stories for years. It's neigh impossible for them to even respond to a request.

 

[ChrisE]

Why don't you take that to an NFL forum and rattle their cage? This is a cycling forum. And contrary to your point, open and honest admissions actually do the opposite of making people more cynical. See, the doping that was happening was happening during a time when "I am really, really super sad (frowny face) that you people don't believe in miracles and the wonderful things these athletes are doing here at the Tour de France (pronounce the de as dee like Bob Roll)" was what was said about doping. People don't like to be lied to, and having the truth come out makes people more sure that these same people who are admitting their past doping will continue to be open and honest (as opposed to closed and forcefully imposing a code of silence) in the future. You aren't a cynic; you just like to show an air of intellectual superiority in your typical stentorian manner on any occasion you can.

There is a limit of emoticons on this software, or I would fill the page with rolling eyes. You can't be serious, but I am not being serious with myself if I give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, JV admitting doping and marketing his "clean" team, and imploring doping rules be in place (as if they aren't??) does not make a cynical public more cynical towards cycling. Got it. As for the NFL, maybe Jerry Jones should come out and say how clean the Cowboys are, and whine about PED rules. How stupid would that be? Maybe you should have taken some psychology classes as electives.

I won't even respond to your LA BS since you can't seem to stay on topic. It's always about LA if you have nothing else. You think this article is good, I think it is worthless. If there is nothing else then we can stop before I start yawning again. I don't want to fall asleep watching golf today.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

There is a limit of emoticons on this software, or I would fill the page with rolling eyes. You can't be serious, but I am not being serious with myself if I give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, JV admitting doping and marketing his "clean" team, and imploring doping rules be in place (as if they aren't??) does not make a cynical public more cynical towards cycling. Got it. As for the NFL, maybe Jerry Jones should come out and say how clean the Cowboys are, and whine about PED rules. How stupid would that be? Maybe you should have taken some psychology classes as electives.

I won't even respond to your LA BS since you can't seem to stay on topic. It's always about LA if you have nothing else. You think this article is good, I think it is worthless. If there is nothing else then we can stop before I start yawning again. I don't want to fall asleep watching golf today.

I already posted that response for you. Here, I will do it again so you can have more time to watch your golf...(BTW, I believe the UCI cut back on passport testing last year, but yea, you have a point...no wait)

"The haters here can hate because haters are stupid and I hate haters and don't care if anyone who dopes gets away with it so long as I can come in with my facade of superiority and sarcastically and childishly admonish the haters because haters are hate filled hatemongers and I love to increase my post count by pointing out the stupid hatred of the hate filled haters."

EDIT: As for the LA stuff, it was off topic, but you will have to excuse me for bringing it up when your pattern of: When something happens that is positive for Armstrong your post count goes through the roof with "see you stupid haters are stupid haters," but when things are going not so well for him, you pretty much seem to be nowhere to be found... <- found it

 

[koshatnik]

Thanks for writing this, JV. Keep it up.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And you said upthread that all didn't know it. Is it possible for sport to change without making a cynical public even more cynical, further painting cycling in a bad light while doped up 300 lb linemen running sub 5 40's get cheered wildly on Sundays?

I said up thread that all did not know about JV doping, that's different.

I couldn't care about football - the reason the public is cynical about cycling is it has never addressed its doping and continues to add chapters to it instead of being a historical footnote.
Attempting to hide the deceit - which appears to be your preferred option - has been one of the main reasons that the sport continues to be the mess it is.

 

[T_S_A_R]

can anyone provide a link to his 2006 interview where he claimed the sport was now clean?

cheers.

 

[ChrisE]

I already posted that response for you. Here, I will do it again so you can have more time to watch your golf...(BTW, I believe the UCI cut back on passport testing last year, but yea, you have a point...no wait)

"The haters here can hate because haters are stupid and I hate haters and don't care if anyone who dopes gets away with it so long as I can come in with my facade of superiority and sarcastically and childishly admonish the haters because haters are hate filled hatemongers and I love to increase my post count by pointing out the stupid hatred of the hate filled haters."

EDIT: As for the LA stuff, it was off topic, but you will have to excuse me for bringing it up when your pattern of: When something happens that is positive for Armstrong your post count goes through the roof with "see you stupid haters are stupid haters," but when things are going not so well for him, you pretty much seem to be nowhere to be found... <- found it

My post count goes up at times for two reasons; one, when something interesting happens and/or two when the mob persona in here overlooks critical thinking. Nothing has really happened inre to LA lately, but when it does you can be sure I my post count will go up. Until then, you and your buddies can throw feces around your cage uninterrupted in the USADA thread.

I started to post when Vino won, but there I agreed with alot of the posts so I saw no point. I find no joy in sitting around agreeing about nothing with like minded rabid individuals, which you etal apparently enjoy and need. My self awareness is to the point where I don't need my opinions validated by such juvenile methods. I would rather my opinion be swayed from a point I did not consider. That rarely happens in here but I am an optimist.

As for the subject of this thread, I have made my point regardless of your twisting. Some in here have taken note and perhaps looked at the situation more critically, and it gives people something to think about other than the current Justin Bieber/pre-pubescent shool girl act that was going on before I posted in this thread.

Now, with that being said I will go watch golf for the next 6 hours and I apologize for the lather I have left you in. I have no other comments on this subject, so return to the echo chamber.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

My post count goes up at times for two reasons; one, when something interesting happens and/or two when the mob persona in here overlooks critical thinking. Nothing has really happened inre to LA lately, but when it does you can be sure I my post count will go up. Until then, you and your buddies can throw feces around your cage uninterrupted in the USADA thread.

I started to post when Vino won, but there I agreed with alot of the posts so I saw no point. I find no joy in sitting around agreeing about nothing with like minded rabid individuals, which you etal apparently enjoy and need. My self awareness is to the point where I don't need my opinions validated by such juvenile methods. I would rather my opinion be swayed from a point I did not consider. That rarely happens in here but I am an optimist.

As for the subject of this thread, I have made my point regardless of your twisting. Some in here have taken note and perhaps looked at the situation more critically, and it gives people something to think about other than the current Justin Bieber/pre-pubescent shool girl act that was going on before I posted in this thread.

Now, with that being said I will go watch golf for the next 6 hours and I apologize for the lather I have left you in. I have no other comments on this subject, so return to the echo chamber.

I stopped there because I didn't really care...<- Look at me, I'm a rapper!!

 

[thehog]

can anyone provide a link to his 2006 interview where he claimed the sport was now clean?

cheers.

He claimed it in 2000.... in 02.

 

[thehog]

I stopped there because I didn't really care...<- Look at me, I'm a rapper!!

My advice is not to take the bait.

 

[D-Queued]

If it is of any consolation Chris E, the way I read it was more of a beginning of a dialog rather than an end.

Now is not the time to spill the whole beans. Now is a very good time, though, to admit you were doped when riding for USPS.

He has confirmed that openly for the first time. Big step.

We have had hints of this before, such as the IM conversation, but this is straight from JV to the public at large.

If he is this open now, and if it is reasonably well received, cautious optimism suggests he may be comfortable providing a few more details in a follow up. Details like who got him started, who provided the program and monitored it, who else was involved, etc. Next we could talk about clean teams (CA), and really dirty ones (USPS). Then, for the main course, perhaps he can shed some light on how corrupt the UCI is.

Paraphrasing Sir Winston, this isn't the end of the beginning, it is just the beginning.

Dave.

 

[ExRower]

Why bring the NFL into this, ChrisE?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

My advice is not to take the bait.

It's all about the Benjamins baby, uh huh, yeah

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why bring the NFL into this, ChrisE?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Cervelo77]

I thank Vaughters for writing the piece in the NYT because there it reaches a wider audience and his admissions from his own story lends more weight to what he is saying.

 

[the big ring]

I have a question, JV, and realise that it probably cannot be answered simply, if at all.

My question: can you guarantee the cleanliness of your 2009 Tour de France team?

Some data to jog your memory:


2009: Contador, Shleck, Armstrong 85:48
Top rider: BW @ 4th @ 6'
CVV: 8th @ 12'
Teams: 2nd / 20

2010: Contador, Schleck, Menchov 91:58
Top: Ryder @ 10'
Teams: 16th / 22

2011: Evans, Schleck, Schleck 86:12
Top: Tom Danielson @ 8'
CVV: 17th @ 27
Ryder: 18th @ 27
Teams: 1st / 22

2012: Wiggins, Froome, Nibali 87:34
Top: Dan Martin 35th @ 1:25
CVV: 60th @ 1:58
Teams: 20th / 22

 

[ChrisE]

Why bring the NFL into this, ChrisE?

OK, I will play for one more just to clear up your confusion

I could have named any number of sports, but this being a predominently US forum I used an obvious example to make a point, which was lost on the knee-jerk cult "strawman" screeching so common in the forum.

If you wish substitute the NFL with other sports such as tennis, or even Nascar for crying out loud. They have dope issues as well, and are no further from cleaning it up than cycling without people like JV spewing contradictories. There will always be people that cheat, no matter what the sport or business.

Cycling PR like this is self destructive. It is possible to combat doping and have rules in place to catch dopers without publicly coming out and admitting how dirty your sport is with your "clean" schtick whining for rule enforcement and "save the kids", the deduction being cycling is dirty above all others due to lack of similar buffoonery from leaders in those sports.

I somewhat support JV for saying he doped (I wrote that upthread I believe), but don't really see the point. Change requires officials in place to force positive change, not an empty CYA op ed in the NYT about cycling in the cold and a Nancy Reagan "just say no" rendition. The problem is "officials in place" are knee deep (and not just in cycling IMO) so that is the hard part, and why I think the LA thing will get very interesting soon, beyond the UCI, if LA chooses to scorch earth this thing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

OK, I will play for one more just to clear up your confusion and take a jab at TFF's clown act at the end.

I could have named any number of sports, but this being a predominently US forum I used an obvious example to make a point, which was lost on the knee-jerk cult "strawman" screeching so common in the forum.

If you wish substitute the NFL with other sports such as tennis, or even Nascar for crying out loud. They have dope issues as well, and are no further from cleaning it up than cycling without people like JV spewing contradictories. There will always be people that cheat, no matter what the sport or business.

Cycling PR like this is self destructive. It is possible to combat doping and have rules in place to catch dopers without publicly coming out and admitting how dirty your sport is with your "clean" schtick whining for rule enforcement and "save the kids", the deduction being cycling is dirty above all others due to lack of similar buffoonery from leaders in those sports.

I somewhat support JV for saying he doped (I wrote that upthread I believe), but don't really see the point. Change requires officials in place to force positive change, not an empty CYA op ed in the NYT about cycling in the cold and a Nancy Reagan "just say no" rendition. The problem is "officials in place" are knee deep (and not just in cycling IMO) so that is the hard part, and why I think the LA thing will get very interesting soon, beyond the UCI, if LA chooses to scorch earth this thing.



Liar.

Now I really am out of here.

I don't give a hoot about other sports - cycling is rightly looked as having a doping problem, because it does have a doping problem.

The 3 biggest scandals in cycling are Festina, Puerto and soon USPS - basically all are the result of police investigations or the USADA doing the job that they are obliged to. This is why the public know cycling has doping problem.
Why should outside agencies have to police our sport?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

OK, I will play for one more just to clear up your confusion and take a jab at TFF's clown act at the end.

I could have named any number of sports, but this being a predominently US forum I used an obvious example to make a point, which was lost on the knee-jerk cult "strawman" screeching so common in the forum.

If you wish substitute the NFL with other sports such as tennis, or even Nascar for crying out loud. They have dope issues as well, and are no further from cleaning it up than cycling without people like JV spewing contradictories. There will always be people that cheat, no matter what the sport or business.

Cycling PR like this is self destructive. It is possible to combat doping and have rules in place to catch dopers without publicly coming out and admitting how dirty your sport is with your "clean" schtick whining for rule enforcement and "save the kids", the deduction being cycling is dirty above all others due to lack of similar buffoonery from leaders in those sports.

I somewhat support JV for saying he doped (I wrote that upthread I believe), but don't really see the point. Change requires officials in place to force positive change, not an empty CYA op ed in the NYT about cycling in the cold and a Nancy Reagan "just say no" rendition. The problem is "officials in place" are knee deep (and not just in cycling IMO) so that is the hard part, and why I think the LA thing will get very interesting soon, beyond the UCI, if LA chooses to scorch earth this thing.



Liar.

Now I really am out of here.

I stopped right there because I didn't care...<- Huh Hu Hu, Kick it!

 

[spalco]

I don't give a hoot about other sports - cycling is rightly looked as having a doping problem, because it does have a doping problem.

The 3 biggest scandals in cycling are Festina, Puerto and soon USPS - basically all are the result of police investigations or the USADA doing the job that they are obliged to. This is why the public know cycling has doping problem.
Why should outside agencies have to police our sport?

Regardless of UCI corruption and incompetence, I've long been convinced, that law enforcement is the only way to really curb doping. Even if the UCI was 100% behind anti-doping efforts, police and courts can do way more than they ever could and far more effectively.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I will play for one more just to clear up your confusion and take a jab at TFF's clown act at the end.

I could have named any number of sports, but this being a predominently US forum I used an obvious example to make a point, which was lost on the knee-jerk cult "strawman" screeching so common in the forum.

If you wish substitute the NFL with other sports such as tennis, or even Nascar for crying out loud. They have dope issues as well, and are no further from cleaning it up than cycling without people like JV spewing contradictories. There will always be people that cheat, no matter what the sport or business.

Cycling PR like this is self destructive. It is possible to combat doping and have rules in place to catch dopers without publicly coming out and admitting how dirty your sport is with your "clean" schtick whining for rule enforcement and "save the kids", the deduction being cycling is dirty above all others due to lack of similar buffoonery from leaders in those sports.

I somewhat support JV for saying he doped (I wrote that upthread I believe), but don't really see the point. Change requires officials in place to force positive change, not an empty CYA op ed in the NYT about cycling in the cold and a Nancy Reagan "just say no" rendition. The problem is "officials in place" are knee deep (and not just in cycling IMO) so that is the hard part, and why I think the LA thing will get very interesting soon, beyond the UCI, if LA chooses to scorch earth this thing.



Liar.

Now I really am out of here.

Good.

Before you go maybe you can leave a plunger as you clogged this thread up pretty bad.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Good.

Before you go maybe you can leave a plunger as you clogged this thread up pretty bad.

I don't know why anyone bothers to reply to Chris' 'game'.
Sling insults, add juvie put downs, make a 'cutting' superior tone remark ...take ball and go home. La,la,la....