JV talks, sort of

[ToreBear]

God timing

First post. Sorry if I step on any toes. It's not intentional.

I think JVs article is very good. He shouldn't say anything that hampers USADA, which I don't think he did. He also has to wright for the average joe. Emotions and simple examples are good.

Also he has to be careful regarding the crazy UCI top guys. A few years ago, this could possibly be the end of his team. Now, it should be ok.

I'm looking forward to following all this doping stuff in the next few weeks. I think the IOC is ready to strangle Pat for disturbing their show with his antics. Cycling is already on probation, and Pats actions have probably raised a lot of new eye brows.

Time will tell.

 

[Cavalier]

I would not say that. He is pretty open to those that matter.

And that's immediately my bug-bear, and I've written as such to JV on twitter a few times. The inference that fans don't matter, that they're not stake-holders, that they don't buy his sponsor's products. There are enough fans of cycling to pressure companies and organisations to force massive changes in the sport, but nobody seems to believe they're important if they're not the ones doing the testing. They're simply the ones doing the reading, the swallowing, and it's ok to treat them like mushrooms.

I think eventually that mindset will change, and I don't think it will be far away.

 

[spalco]

PS: Just read the NY Times article. I thought it was going to be another non-confession, and then blam! And you managed to get it into a coherent article with a larger scope, and without making a show out of it, too. Congratulations on the well-written piece, and huge respect for finally coming out to the general public. I hope the backlash is not too bad.

I agree. Respect.

 

[ChrisE]

Absolutely +1 here.

On top of that, explain even tho doping is prevalent how his "clean" team is successful. I mean, it must be prevalent, right? Else, why does he go around touting it's cleanliness, implying that others are not?

And, why did he retire at 29 when he was riding for "clean" CA? Surely this was Garmin of the 90's.

 

[danjo007]

this *** needs to be kicked out of cycling altogether now he's admitted it. he is in a position of trust.. would you let a child molesterer look after your children?

 

[Cavalier]

And of course I posted my reply after a weekend away with no net connection to then see JV's article and his posts. My sentiment doesn't change a great deal - it's great to see a confession, and it's never too late to see one, but I still can't help but feel there's no real answers there. I know it's a personal op-ed from his POV, but I always find myself craving the answer to: Who made him do this, who helped him do this, and why is he not putting them out of work. He turned his back, yes - but what about those who still go through that process.

I always find myself with more questions than answers, and knowing that my questions aren't interesting enough to be answered simply because I'm not the person in charge of an ADO is immeasurably frustrating, and one of the reasons I'm going to study to work in A/D - I'd much rather feel like I'm in a position to contribute to finding the answers properly rather than sitting and feeding on whatever is donated.

 

[Cavalier]

this *** needs to be kicked out of cycling altogether now he's admitted it. he is in a position of trust.. would you let a child molesterer look after your children?

That comparison is easily one of the most ridiculous thing in here. About the only more absurd thing you could have written was to Godwin it in addition.

 

[danjo007]

i read your posts. enough said

 

[DominicDecoco]

Didn't JV already admitted 2-3 years ago, when asked if he was doping in his time as a rider, with something like 'everyone can state the obvious'?

 

[Pastavore]

this *** needs to be kicked out of cycling altogether now he's admitted it. he is in a position of trust.. would you let a child molesterer look after your children?

Riiiight! Kick out the guy with the guts to come clean, and leave in positions of authority the other guys who haven't admitted, and actively support omerta and continued doping?

Oh, and "molesterer" isn't even a word.

 

[hrotha]

Didn't JV already admitted 2-3 years ago, when asked if he was doping in his time as a rider, with something like 'everyone can state the obvious'?

Well, yes, he had all but spelled it out explicitly, but he had always left some room for plausible deniability. For the general public, that didn't count, and in fact it wasn't even widely reported, because it wasn't strictly news (you can't write a news article saying "Pretty sure former USPS rider and current Garmin DS hints at doping past").

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

This admission from JV seems like a nice way to provide some personal support to the Garmin team members who may be about to be named, perhaps in an expanded USADA charging letter.

 

[spalco]

This admission from JV seems like a nice way to provide some personal support to the Garmin team members who may be about to be named, perhaps in an expanded USADA charging letter.

Or he's getting named himself and tries to get in front of the story.

 

[will10]

To me it looked like it was eating away at him all the time. He has been giving crytic comments on twitter admitting to doping and also done it in a past interview to Kimmage. At least he has admitted it, and I trust that he has portrayed his side of the story to the younger riders in Garmin, judging by his telling off of Talansky. At the start of the season we had Dan Martin criticising no doping controls at the Haut Var and Mediteranean races. Maybe this is the mentality that JV is trying to instill in his riders.

At the time I read Dan Martin's comments about Haut Var and Tour Med. as a dig at Mr. Tiernan-Locke's performances, rather than showing a broad anti-doping stance, but you may well be right.

 

[D Avoid]

Probability that he doped is around 100% I would say but then again probably so did most of the others. He was also just an amazing climber and a great ITT'ist. But the camping car anecdote seems - especially for Gaul - little evidence. The guy was just really weird and didn't really get along with anyone. After his career, he lived completely isolated in the woods for some time.

Also I recently read somewhere that the secret of his success was that he ate 1 kg (sic) of sugar cubes per day

Why would he be weird, as I see it he sees "real life" for what it is, a joke perpetuated on the vast majority, in that I mean nearly everybody. His natural talent having dragged him into the vortex must have made for an uncomfortable existence. All you have to do is go to a race where people talk bling bling bling and then some bigger bling turns up in the form of a Ferrari or a helicopter and all are instantly neutered till they can figure out how to afford the same or bigger bling, now I feel bettter and can now check to see if I won the £148,000,000 on Friday!!

 

[ExRower]

And, why did he retire at 29 when he was riding for "clean" CA? Surely this was Garmin of the 90's.

did you read the article? he quit because he knew he couldnt deliver the goods as a clean rider.

He's pretty much said the same thing, sans doping, when he quit all those years ago.

 

[veganrob]

It is all about timing, and it is now. I believe it is way more than just Lance, USADA. With PAt getting more stupid and drunk by the minute we may see some wholesale changes in bike racing and UCI. Guilty parties are in real panic mode now ready to self destruct.
JV may be the smartest one of all involved. He just had to play along for a while waiting for things to play out, as they certainly are now. AS someone mentioned, he may be president of newly formed racing organization. I just hope his heart is in the right place. I believe it is. And we will see a brighter future for clean, exciting bike racing.

 

[tsophoto]

First, Chapeau JV.

Second, guys - This op-ed was published in the NYTs on the day of the Olympic closing ceremonies. And in it JV name drops other sports. Giving that sort of context to the larger 'doping in sports' conversation will surely move the game on more quickly than a detailed admission about what color his socks were when he first pushed the needle into his arm.

Third, Chapeau JV.

 

[Carols]

Chapeau Mr. Vaughters!!!

Thank you so much for that well written and emotionally moving article. My heart hurts for you just reading the unbearable choice you had to make.

I sincerely hope there isn't to much backlash and your choice to assist youngster via your admission is viewed with Bravery and Courage. That is how I see it.

All the very best to you and Garmin!!!!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

On top of that, explain even tho doping is prevalent how his "clean" team is successful. I mean, it must be prevalent, right? Else, why does he go around touting it's cleanliness, implying that others are not?

And, why did he retire at 29 when he was riding for "clean" CA? Surely this was Garmin of the 90's.

Let me interpret this post: "I didn't read the editorial before posting, but I'm going to comment on this in a contrarian manner because everyone I flame here seems to be lining up on the other side."

He answered your questions right there in the post. I won't give away the answers as you should do your own heavy lifting. Have fun reading, or you could just go with your general nature and not read it and continue to sling mud pies from the sidelines.

 

[sniper]

didn't vaughters defend wiggins in a series of twitts recently?


did he ever take similar effort to defend any of the whistleblowers?
(serious question)

 

[cineteq]

didn't vaughters defend wiggins in a series of twitts recently?

That was dumb.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I just read the NY Times article. I had high hopes. I was underwhelmed. It's a trite appeal to emotion and it's extremely vague. It will accomplish nothing. No, sorry, it does get some clinicians off his back who strangely demanded a more "complete" confession which I never totally understood anyway.

Insiders need to stop talking about drugs/methods to the general public like they are school children. They need to know how tests are defeated so easily (false negatives), the merits of OOC controls (windows of detection), the financials and conflicts of interest for federations, the need for passport based testing, transparency in anti-doping, the merits of independent testing/results management, etc, etc...

Write that article and speak publicly and openly about real issues and I'll get on board. Until then you are WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME!

The reality is that the information you wanted to see in the editorial is the information best left to revealing to anti-doping agencies. What purpose does it serve to detail methods of avoidance, etc., to the general public. Sure, some of us have an interest in such things, but the appropriate place for that type of information is not an editorial about his past and why he fights for a clean sport in the way that is available to him (he doesn't get to dope test, that is for the agencies charged with that), he runs his team in a way that minimizes as best as possible the need for his riders to consider doping. That he added in an admission of his past in a public forum was owed to nobody. Had he just admitted these things to the people close to him who he had lied to about it, he would have done all of the accounting he ever needed to do IMO. That he decided to do so in a public forum, in a non self-aggrandizing manner, and as part of dialogue for cleaner sport is an admirable thing. The fact is that he didn't owe any of us jack ****.

As I said before, I would love to have read more detail, but that desire on my part or on the part of anyone else imparts no obligation on JV at all. I will freely admit that I have much greater respect for him because of his admission, and that is mostly based on the fact that others who were honest in public forums have been hanging in the wind for awhile. To have someone who never failed a test, and who has been actively and publicly fighting for a clean sport to admit this in a public forum gives greater credence to the things those others have said. How is that a bad thing at all?

 

[hrotha]

Let me interpret this post: "I didn't read the editorial before posting, but I'm going to comment on this in a contrarian manner because everyone I flame here seems to be lining up on the other side."

He answered your questions right there in the post. I won't give away the answers as you should do your own heavy lifting. Have fun reading, or you could just go with your general nature and not read it and continue to sling mud pies from the sidelines.

Furthermore, the question of why he retired when he was riding clean at CA was addressed more in-depth via Twitter. In fact, in a crazy turn of events, this very thread was started to discuss those tweets! Amazing, eh, Chris?

 

[sniper]

The reality is that the information you wanted to see in the editorial is the information best left to revealing to anti-doping agencies. What purpose does it serve to detail methods of avoidance, etc., to the general public. Sure, some of us have an interest in such things, but the appropriate place for that type of information is not an editorial about his past and why he fights for a clean sport in the way that is available to him (he doesn't get to dope test, that is for the agencies charged with that), he runs his team in a way that minimizes as best as possible the need for his riders to consider doping. That he added in an admission of his past in a public forum was owed to nobody. Had he just admitted these things to the people close to him who he had lied to about it, he would have done all of the accounting he ever needed to do IMO. That he decided to do so in a public forum, in a non self-aggrandizing manner, and as part of dialogue for cleaner sport is an admirable thing. The fact is that he didn't owe any of us jack ****.

As I said before, I would love to have read more detail, but that desire on my part or on the part of anyone else imparts no obligation on JV at all. I will freely admit that I have much greater respect for him because of his admission, and that is mostly based on the fact that others who were honest in public forums have been hanging in the wind for awhile. To have someone who never failed a test, and who has been actively and publicly fighting for a clean sport to admit this in a public forum gives greater credence to the things those others have said. How is that a bad thing at all?

nobody expected JV to fully breach the omerta.
would have been stupid.

another question at issue is whether JV's NYT confession letter does anything to remove the doubts concerning his clean team dream team.

-alan lim
-JV's defense of wiggo
-Garmin training camps near valencia
-"perception is reality"
and probably more...it all remains unaddressed.

of course, that doesn't take anything away from the credits he deserves for his confession. they are two different issues, me thinks.