JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

Better than H? Is that like being the best assclown?

I was the best Chris over there, period.

You are even better ChrisT.

 

[horsinabout]

And what does he really know vs what he is saying in here? BTW, how do we know this is really JV?

I gravitate back and forth on whether this guy is really doing alot to improve the sport or if he is full of ****, ****ing with everybody. That means the forum, the sport, everybody. Coming in here and not being able to say certain things or promoting cleanlilness, rightfully so in my mind with the SKY thing because of the situaton, is a no win situation.

Promoting cleanliness in the sport while qualifying the shadows is a no win situation. Asking for 3x more testing $ while winning GT's makes no sense. If I was him I would just STFU but he keeps on. It makes no sense to me.

Of course I also stated LA should just pay people off and go off in the distance and admit nothing, before his buffoonery on Oprah. I don't have a good recent track record in predicting what idiots will do or why they do what they do. There is absolutely no benefit for him being in here and alot of downside, which makes me want to believe him even if I think he is an idiot for doing so. That flies in the face of the factual inconsistencies pointed out by non-starstruck posters which cannot be ignored, and casts doubt.

Yes it is most perplexing isn't it?

In cycling where extensive doping programs are introduced you are either in or out....in out...in out...shake it all about. If your out, you would come on the forum - with conviction?...to shake it all about?

 

[ChrisE]

Yes it is most perplexing isn't it?

In cycling where extensive doping programs are introduced you are either in or out....in out...in out...shake it all about. If your out, you would come on the forum - with conviction?...to shake it all about?

You think he comes on here with conviction? How can he do that, with whatever repurcussions are flying around? Posters want him to come on here and jam riders and teams who are beating his allegedly clean riders and he gets sued and kicked out of the sport, while his clean riders are beating dopers he is jamming in the Giro. WTF? It's like a who's on first routine.

Or, you believe him that everything is mostly clean and 3x more money is needed for the future, while skirting around the points that posters have brought up in here about the present? That too sounds like BS.

I have no idea whether either his riders are doping on their own or if there is something team wide, or if things are as clean as he says in the peloton. This forum has no idea whether or not they are seeing a clean performance or not. It's the clinic way, eternal pessimism, and the public thinks all cycling is are dopers anyway. Hypocrisy abounds in the clinic, and if anybody believes JV on face value then they should GTFO of the clinic and never question any riders, like the joke 2011 of Gilbert.

JV can't prove any of those things one way or the other, as has been shown in here. So, what is the point, not only in posting in here but his whole gig?

 

[horsinabout]

You think he comes on here with conviction? How can he do that, with whatever repurcussions are flying around?

No I am not saying that...I'm saying I don't know...it is perplexing.

Or, you believe him that everything is mostly clean and 3x more money is needed for the future, while skirting around the points that posters have brought up in here about the present? That too sounds like BS.

I personally wouldn't and don't trust any ex doper, especially one who is still in the sport at the highest level.

JV can't prove any of those things one way or the other, as has been shown in here. So, what is the point, not only in posting in here but his whole gig?

Beats me!

 

[ChrisE]

No I am not saying that...I'm saying I don't know...it is perplexing.



I personally wouldn't and don't trust any ex doper, especially one who is still in the sport at the highest level.

Edit to my previous post...I don't mean "you" as in you, I was writing rhetorically.

I'm not in that boat; I do believe an ex-doper can change just like I believe any ex-____ can change depending upon the severity of the issue or whether they are a psychopath. I don't really think guys went into the sport jonesing to take PED's, so given the choice either then or now they would rather not.

Problem is that it is an arms race because there will always be cheating, in everything. There is incentive to cheat in sport, and by a long shot I do not believe cycling is the worse. All you can do is try to control cheating, but once somebody starts and there is financial incentive to not police that then off you go. There is no financial incentive to bust dopers in sport, and alot of downside especially when most of the public doesn't care. There is much incentive to cover up positives and not police it, especially when the riders don't really care as a whole because they have already had that personal conversation. It's all pretty elementary human nature stuff.

Remember Hamilton saying that the peloton would circe the wagons if somebody got popped? If one chooses they can enjoy watching the sport or they can choose to get their panties in a wad over something inevitable.

 

[blackcat]

You are even better ChrisT.

but not as good as House nor Hombre

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dear Wiggo responded with a similarly irrelevant reply and didn't even address the question. He seems to think there is something inherently wrong with the adaptive model that is used to iterate the predictive distribution of expected values and specifically the initial distribution that is used, but the fact is, these values are based on population values, which is a perfectly acceptable 'prior' to utilize.

Irrelevant how? I notice you didn't quote and refute. Once again a post full of wind from you.

Population values - yeah right, like that's as believable as LA saying he was 72kg at the Tour. I've posted the Off-score values table too many times to do it again, but it's almost impossible to trigger anything using the "population values".

You were the one that said the Bayesian model handles new BP members, but it turns out, it's just population values. Where's the vetting in that?

Your arguments are weak as are your rebuttals.

Population values. Gimme a break. Ever heard of the phenomenon that VO2 max correlates with Hgb? Ever heard the phenomenon that high VO2 max correlates with low efficiency? Ever considered what you can do with a low starting VO2 max and relatively high efficiency if you bump your Hgb pre-BP entry and then keep it there with some consistent EPO dosaging?

Population values. Yeah good.

 

[mastersracer]

Irrelevant how? I notice you didn't quote and refute. Once again a post full of wind from you.

Population values - yeah right, like that's as believable as LA saying he was 72kg at the Tour. I've posted the Off-score values table too many times to do it again, but it's almost impossible to trigger anything using the "population values".

You were the one that said the Bayesian model handles new BP members, but it turns out, it's just population values. Where's the vetting in that?

Your arguments are weak as are your rebuttals.

Population values. Gimme a break. Ever heard of the phenomenon that VO2 max correlates with Hgb? Ever heard the phenomenon that high VO2 max correlates with low efficiency? Ever considered what you can do with a low starting VO2 max and relatively high efficiency if you bump your Hgb pre-BP entry and then keep it there with some consistent EPO dosaging?

Population values. Yeah good.

The initial use of population values is essentially just using a prior that assumes the new subject is average and then adapts to by building a model of that athlete based on their test history. I do not have the algorithm that is used, so have no idea what your hypothetical values are supposed to illustrate. Fact is, the model is extremely robust (its sensitivity is based on a very conservative choice of threshold, but that's a policy decision). Schumacher has recently shown its power in detecting transfusions even with the conservative threshold. Your mocking is baseless.

You have never answered the question of why the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb undermines the program re Ryder. It doesn't, but you don't know why.

e.g., from Ashenden's paper:

"In detail, the adaptive model operates as follows. Before any observation, the mean of the predictive distribution of expected values for an athlete is the population mean (POPmean) and its variance is the sum of the between-subject (BS) and within-subject (WS) variance:
n=0:X1= BSvarianceX2= POPmeanPredictive mean =X2Predictive variance =X1+ WSvariance

Thereafter, the predictive distribution of expected values is computed iteratively as a function of the athlete’s test history and the information above. For a normally distributed marker and a universal WS variance, where RES_N is the result for the observation number ‘n’, the iteration is the following:
N→n+1:A=X1B=X2
X1=11A+1WSvar
X2=X1×BA+X1×RES_NWSvar
Predictive mean=X2\hfillPredictive variance=X1 + WSvariance\hfill

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You have never answered the question of why the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb undermines the program re Ryder. It doesn't, but you don't know why.

You need to get your eyes checked, bud. Here's what I wrote:

9 weeks gap then 6 weeks gap allows 5 x 3 week cycles for storing blood, using EPO to ramp Hgb back up post-withdrawal. If you've just been tested, the likelihood of being tested again the next day = 0%. So the best time to start charging is the instant the tester leaves the premises.

I repeated it coz you obviously missed it the first time. But I won't be doing it again.

If you want to tell me this is no issue, then fine, we don't need to continue. But telling me 9 and then 6 week gaps is "no problem" for someone who won a GT "clean", against a doped opposition.

Yeah right.

----------------

Re: population avaerages? Seriously? after the example I gave you want to talk about the adaptive model? After I said "ongoing doping to sustain BP entry values". Man.

You need to think a little more duplicitously. These guys are out to win.

 

[Ferminal]

How are you supposed to catch extremely high retics if you don't test off-season?

 

[JV1973]

You guys are right. They all dope. *******s. And I'm a ******* too.

You won.

ok, since victory has been achieved, a round of back patting is in order.

Someday I can only pray to have the insight, intelligence, and clarity of the victors.

well done.

 

[ChrisE]

You guys are right. They all dope. *******s. And I'm a ******* too.

You won.

ok, since victory has been achieved, a round of back patting is in order.

Someday I can only pray to have the insight, intelligence, and clarity of the victors.

well done.

If it is so frustrating, why don't you just tell us what you wish to achieve by subjecting yourself to all of this? Surely there is a method to this madness?

 

[JV1973]

If it is so frustrating, why don't you just tell us what you wish to achieve by subjecting yourself to all of this? Surely there is a method to this madness?

not more than to convince a few people that used to love cycling that it isnt so bad these days. thats it. it also helps me more fully form my ideas and arguments.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You guys are right. They all dope. *******s. And I'm a ******* too.

You won.

ok, since victory has been achieved, a round of back patting is in order.

Someday I can only pray to have the insight, intelligence, and clarity of the victors.

well done.

Keep your chin up. I just finished watching The World According to D!ck Cheney. The bottom is a lot further down than you imagine...

 

[ChrisE]

not more than to convince a few people that used to love cycling that it isnt so bad these days. thats it. it also helps me more fully form my ideas and arguments.

The problem with that is you must leave too many holes in your argument for it to be convincing in here.

 

[Ferminal]

not more than to convince a few people that used to love cycling that it isnt so bad these days. thats it. it also helps me more fully form my ideas and arguments.

Come on, the twelve of us hate hate hate cycling, that is never going to change unfortunately.

 

[DirtyWorks]

not more than to convince a few people that used to love cycling that it isnt so bad these days. thats it. it also helps me more fully form my ideas and arguments.

So bad relative to the era you rode???? From waaaaaaaayyyyy out here in the cheap seats, that's still quite a bit of uncontrolled human experimentation. It's still a shocking amount of cheating.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Come on, the twelve of us hate hate hate cycling, that is never going to change unfortunately.

If by "hate" it's still cool for me to get up Sunday, search around for sh!tty feeds, and then listen to Flemish for a couple of hours, I'll stay in jury room.

 

[Ferminal]

If by "hate" it's still cool for me to get up Sunday, search around for sh!tty feeds, and then listen to Flemish for a couple of hours, I'll stay in jury room.

Nail/Head.

 

[BroDeal]

not more than to convince a few people that used to love cycling that it isnt so bad these days. thats it. it also helps me more fully form my ideas and arguments.

There are people who are willing to consider that things have changed for the better but cycling is trapped by its past. It is very hard to break free from that. It is like an auto car company with a long history of producing crappy cars. Even though the quality may have drastically improved, any new problem is magnified in the minds of potential customers by the company's past. The smallest problems do a huge amount of damage to the new brand equity the company is attempting to build.

Right now Team Sky is making the sport look terrible. It does not matter if the team's riders are not doping. The results are such an outlier to what is usual, they smell bad. To make things worse, the sport is run by a moron. Can anyone imagine McQuaid as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company giving a quarterly earnings conference call. The market's faith in the company would fall off a cliff moments after he began speaking. The stock would crater.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Can anyone imagine McQuaid as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company giving a quarterly earnings conference call. The market's faith in the company would fall off a cliff moments after he began speaking. The stock would crater.

That's a bad analogy. Steve Jobs was better at being Hein than Hein or Pat. The honeymoon is still on for a company that stopped innovating a few months after Jobs left day-to-day management.

IMHO, JV's trying to replay the story where the main character wins over the "hooker with the heart of gold" and saves the girl from the mean streets of Whoville. Except this is real life and the sex workers just want to get paid and no one cares about the peace because the mayor of Whoville is the town's crime boss.

 

[frenchfry]

You guys are right. They all dope. *******s. And I'm a ******* too.

You won.

ok, since victory has been achieved, a round of back patting is in order.

Someday I can only pray to have the insight, intelligence, and clarity of the victors.

well done.

I wonder if you really understand just how much some of us who are passionate about cycling would really, really, really like to believe that everything is fine now.

Unfortunately, to believe would involve ignoring much of the reality that we are faced with. So many known doping "doctors" still working with pro teams, the omnipresence of omerta, the governing body corrupt to the core and the complicity of those who will likely renew their mandate, totally unrealistic performances of certain riders and teams. Some of our judgments are certainly tainted by past events, however there is far too much "evidence" to stop being cynical. Simply believing will not make the problem go away - and I am talking from a fans point of view not that of a GM of a pro team.

I find your participation interesting and helpful to the debate, but that doesn't mean I am ready to believe, even though I would love to.

 

[blackcat]

jonny, if you play your cards right, we may even issue you with The Clinic 12 honorary doctorate.

we can upgrade it from this masters

 

[skippy]

CONGRATS W#*nk*rs !

You had the Op to see a little of the thinking of those that RUN Cycle Sport !

You took ONE Guy , stuck your fingers in both of his eyes , spun him around , pointed at the door , and expected him to find his way out with Dignity ?

WHO is going to come and treat YOU as Adults after that display of STUPIDITY ?

dirty works , says i am fawning !

All of you ignorants that know better than the Profis , hiding behind your avatars , deserve NO CREDIBILITY !

Even some of the " mods " , deserve a wake up call !

Too many times i have asked how the " Clinic " can be a " FORCE " in seeking a change , what a waste of effort that was !

Each of you scoring points off each other so as to acheive what ?

NOTHING !


Less than NOTHING !

Get over yourselves , as a group , you are not worth the time of DAY for a Profi looking for a sense of what the Tifosi is thinking !

Back to Comedy , folks ! Who has the next segment of Joke a minute ?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

CONGRATS W#*nk*rs !
?

Thanks Brad. Good to see you finally joined up. Good luck for the Giro, buddy!