JV talks, sort of

[Buffalo]

Where the eff is our island boy anyway? Tenerife?

 

[mastersracer]

They did not say that at all.

Youre trying to spin out of this about when samples can be collected - what were are discussing is a long period when there were no sample collected.

perhaps you two could elucidate everyone on why more samples are needed to be collected out of competition (the period we're talking about with RH between Nov and Feb) to validate the use of a passport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

perhaps you two could elucidate everyone on why more samples are needed to be collected out of competition (the period we're talking about with RH between Nov and Feb) to validate the use of a passport.

How about the same source that you had but didnt link to:

What is a haematological profile?

The haematological profile on the UCI’s anti-doping program has been in place since 2008.

A series of tests from each rider is organised into a profile which enables individual limits for each rider to be established. Each sample is compared with the rider’s own individual “normal” haematological levels. Any significant variations can then be assessed for possible blood manipulation.

The approach relies on the concept of “indirect” detection. Scientific experts will not actually “see” a banned substance in a sample. Instead, they will compare the parameters of the new sample to parameters measured in previous samples. In this way, fluctuations in the riders’ levels which may indicate manipulation can be identified. It is impossible for a rider to maintain a steady profile if he is manipulating his blood for performance enhancement and/or manipulating his blood to escape detection through a doping control.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

perhaps you two could elucidate everyone on why more samples are needed to be collected out of competition (the period we're talking about with RH between Nov and Feb) to validate the use of a passport.

Perhaps you can tell us why it's useful to test out of competition in the first place. When you've finished doing that, the penny might drop?

While you're at it, perhaps you can explain why JV feels 5x the amount currently spent by teams on contributing to the BP should be spent? Surely that would mean more tests? Around 5x more?

 

[mastersracer]

How about the same source that you had but didnt link to:

That doesn't answer the question I asked: you and others are making a big deal of the fact that no samples were collected between Nov and Feb (out of competition) from RH. Since people are claiming this makes the program 'corrupt' and 'useless' I was asking why - how many samples are needed to establish a profile for a rider? How many are collected, and what would the additional funding DW mentioned be used for? You guys think you're expert enough to analyze blood values and the legitimacy of the program, so I'm challenging you to provide some justification for your claims against it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That doesn't answer the question I asked: you and others are making a big deal of the fact that no samples were collected between Nov and Feb (out of competition) from RH. Since people are claiming this makes the program 'corrupt' and 'useless' I was asking why - how many samples are needed to establish a profile for a rider? How many are collected, and what would the additional funding DW mentioned be used for? You guys think you're expert enough to analyze blood values and the legitimacy of the program, so I'm challenging you to provide some justification for your claims against it.

How do you detect withdrawals and / or transfusions without testing? This seems fundamental to the exercise. In one profile - Ryder's - with data only from Nov through to May, JV had to
1. say the rider was sick for one reading
2. say everyone tested high at the Giro" for another reading
3. make up a bunch of excuses like hypoxia from TTing no wait the stage the day before

to try and explain the bits that didn't necessarily make sense.

And the rest of Ryder's data - from way back when - is available, JV has access to it. So why not show it all. Make it a case study on how you can win a GT clean.

Bottom line: average OOC testing is 2 / rider.
.7 of those samples are tested for EPO.

I am sorry you find this acceptable. But to me, it's laughable. A withdrawal / transfusion routine with EPO to boost blood is of the order of 3 weeks. Time enough for Ryder to do that 3 times Nov - Jan and twice more Jan - Feb. Given noone yet has been tested OOC the day after an OOC test, it would seem the best time to start a loading cycle is the instant the tester walks out the door.

Blood parameters are really simple. It's not rocket science. People are desperate to make you think it is so they can explain stuff away or dismiss WTF comments from people with the ability to think critically.

Your turn: name one useful, effective method a Bayesian model can use to detect anomalous blood parameters for a new BP member?

PS. Thanks sittingbison for pointing out the obvious. A shame some people just can't get it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That doesn't answer the question I asked: you and others are making a big deal of the fact that no samples were collected between Nov and Feb (out of competition) from RH. Since people are claiming this makes the program 'corrupt' and 'useless' I was asking why - how many samples are needed to establish a profile for a rider? How many are collected, and what would the additional funding DW mentioned be used for? You guys think you're expert enough to analyze blood values and the legitimacy of the program, so I'm challenging you to provide some justification for your claims against it.

At no point did I ever do that - stop spinning and making things up.

You got caught out trying to justify a system by adding nonsense about OOC. The whole point of a Bio Passport is to collect samples because they need to be analysed - it in itself is not a stand alone test.
A 9 week gap is absolutely crazy - and I sincerely hope you are not asking people to explain the importance of keeping up analysis during the winter months away from racing.

 

[huntelk]

Wow, I stopped lurking for a few days and all hell has broken loose in the thread.

Don't know if RH is doping or not, maybe he did on Postal, maybe not. The leaked UCI suspicion values sure seem to indicate he is not now ... and I think he finished 4th in the TDF that year. He obviously has talent.
I can't stand all the venom be spewed here. I don't how JV can.

 

[thehog]

Wow, I stopped lurking for a few days and all hell has broken loose in the thread.

Don't know if RH is doping or not, maybe he did on Postal, maybe not. The leaked UCI suspicion values sure seem to indicate he is not now ... and I think he finished 4th in the TDF that year. He obviously has talent.
I can't stand all the venom be spewed here. I don't how JV can.

Every Pro has talent.

A lot of talent.

Cycling has been mired in doping for 20+ years.

It gave itself the reputation it has.

It's not venom it's reality.

JV is a star coming here and replying to people. I think he enjoys the mental jousting. He doesn't need to be here but he understand the Clinic is well known in the industry.

You'd be surprised how many cyclists are aware of the details in here.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wow, I stopped lurking for a few days and all hell has broken loose in the thread.

Don't know if RH is doping or not, maybe he did on Postal, maybe not. The leaked UCI suspicion values sure seem to indicate he is not now ... and I think he finished 4th in the TDF that year. He obviously has talent.
I can't stand all the venom be spewed here. I don't how JV can.

Is that you, Ryder?

 

[huntelk]

Every Pro has talent.

A lot of talent.

Cycling has been mired in doping for 20+ years.

It gave itself the reputation it has.



It's not venom it's reality.

JV is a star coming here and replying to people. I think he enjoys the mental jousting. He doesn't need to be here but he understand the Clinic is well known in the industry.



You'd be surprised how many cyclists are aware of the details in here.

It certainly did earn it's reputation.

It may be reality and not venom but some people sure seem angry at him.
He must love it. it's a losing battle with cynics. I hope he sticks around and invites some other team owners to stop by.

As for the reputation and importance of the Clinic In the industry/sport I wish I knew more....

 

[huntelk]

Is that you, Ryder?

Nope. Would have been a good story.
I am from Canada though.

 

[blackcat]

Is that you, Rider?

no, thats will oldham

High high all night now
My eyes bugged out and I'm down on the couch
Lady's got a box pressed into my face
And a belt of beads draped around her waist

I flex my neck and lose my sight
See the stars dropping out alright
Clouds and nebulae making noises
And constellations in erotic poises

Cold in space and fingers long
Between the ears a synapse is wrong
Clicked apart and's all it can be
The last the last you'll see of the leaves



makes me think of that Cipo anecdote from Tour de Georgia.

he had a heap of race hostesses with him in his hotel room, and a race fan knocked and asked him to sign his Credit Lyonais stuffed "bear".

And Re Lione just drew a set of genetalia on the lyon.

genius.

Cav would never be so droll.

 

[sniper]

Wow, I stopped lurking for a few days and all hell has broken loose in the thread.

Don't know if RH is doping or not, maybe he did on Postal, maybe not. The leaked UCI suspicion values sure seem to indicate he is not now ... and I think he finished 4th in the TDF that year. He obviously has talent.
I can't stand all the venom be spewed here. I don't how JV can.

Wasn't Cancellara a zero on said suspicion list?
We recently learned he was a Fuentes client. Never got caught.

 

[sniper]

Double standards?

By the way, Cancellara is one of Vaughters' favorite riders.

Cancellara is fun to watch. I have respect for his style, even though we royally f-ed him in P-R two years ago. I like Nibali, because he always gives it a go. And Thibout is impressive on his day.

ex-Fuentes guy Hamilton did get caught, and was publicly disgraced by Vaughters.

Jonathan's least favorite rider is Ricco:

My opinion? Ricco is a good example. A guy who kept at it, hard core, long after most others had called a truce. That's just my opinion and its very subjective.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That doesn't answer the question I asked: you and others are making a big deal of the fact that no samples were collected between Nov and Feb (out of competition) from RH. Since people are claiming this makes the program 'corrupt' and 'useless' I was asking why - how many samples are needed to establish a profile for a rider? How many are collected, and what would the additional funding DW mentioned be used for? You guys think you're expert enough to analyze blood values and the legitimacy of the program, so I'm challenging you to provide some justification for your claims against it.

I see you show again your lack on statistical analyze, just like at the critical power model on Wiggins, where even years were left out.

But for the sake of it, a hypothetical rider:

Nov 12, 2011:
Hb: 16.0
Hct: 44.9
Retic: 1.93

Jan 12, 2012:
Hb: 16.1
Hct: 46.9
Retic: 1.66

That would give you a great baseline, than the next results would seem credible:
Feb 27, 2012
Hb: 14.6
Hct: 42.1
Retic: 1.13

May 2, 2012
Hb: 16.0
Hct: 46.0
Retic: 1.76

May 12, 2012
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.3
Retic: 1.56

But, what if, in december 2011 the results would be:
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.4
Retic: 1.11

That would really screw up the thing, wouldnt it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21336951

But hey, what does Ashenden know?

Jonathan's least favorite rider is Ricco:

But he went uphill within human limits, ergo, he was not doping.

 

[timmers]

Analysis is the word you are looking for. As you know Hesjedal is doping have you reported him to the Canadian ADA? If not why not as you have the evidence!

 

[hrotha]

By the way, Cancellara is one of Vaughters' favorite riders.
ex-Fuentes guy Hamilton did get caught, and was publicly disgraced by Vaughters.

Jonathan's least favorite rider is Ricco:

You're grasping at straws as usual, Sprayer. There's so many legitimate reasons to question cycling, Cancellara and JV, but you always choose the most inane and irrelevant ones.

JV didn't say Riccò was his least favourite rider for him to see as a fan watching a race, just that he was an egregious hardcore doper. JV didn't say he thinks Cancellara was clean, either.

Even the most hardcore of the Clinic 12 are allowed to like riders who dope or doped, as long as they don't deny reality. And who knows, maybe JV thinks or has heard that Cancellara has not been doping for a long while.

 

[sniper]

You're grasping at straws as usual, Sprayer. There's so many legitimate reasons to question cycling, Cancellara and JV, but you always choose the most inane and irrelevant ones.

JV didn't say Riccò was his least favourite rider for him to see as a fan watching a race, just that he was an egregious hardcore doper. JV didn't say he thinks Cancellara was clean, either.

Even the most hardcore of the Clinic 12 are allowed to like riders who dope or doped, as long as they don't deny reality. And who knows, maybe JV thinks or has heard that Cancellara has not been doping for a long while.

you don't see any double standards there? cuz I see plenty.
he likes how Cancellara rides.
So he likes how an unrepentant, uncaught doper beats his clean riders? Oh well. Then to see how he publicly humiliated Hamilton... go figure.

And for JV to single out Ricco like that, that's low and you know it. Truce in 2008, but wait, there were plenty of rumors about AICAR in 2008/9. And Dertie got caught in 2010. Oh well.

 

[sittingbison]

Thats the conundrum though isn't it...for all of us including JV. The love of watching panache compared to the dread the performance is juiced.

I do see snipers point, especially as the "luigi" issue has been front and centre. And (clean) cycling team manager JV who has a vested interest in his teams performances is in a different situation to a fan who might just like a particular cyclist.

One more reason to abhorr doping in cycling

 

[skippy]

JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting , something he is not paid to do , nor gives him a great deal of benefit .

In return , there are those that sit in judgement on his views , others that are outright insulting !

What do you suppose the other team Owner/managers think about sticking a toe in this cesspool ? Doubt ANY Racers feel inclined to do more than read the observations made here , why would they reveal their doubts about their personal difficulties in their career , when those that act like pyrannas , twist any input !

Too late now to encourage OTHER Team Manager/Owners to contribute their POV , since this season is getting busier . Why waste time on a bunch of NO HOPERS , that wish they were relevant to the Sport of Cycling !


JV , that you are taking the time to contribute , is appreciated , i have learnt a great deal more here from your recent 3 days of contribututions , than the time i spent at the tirreno-Adriatico , when i had several chats with this seasons racers .

JV , if you were on the outside of the Teams , what would you do to make the " Clinic " a force to be visited by Team Owners/Managers seeking to improve the SPORT of Cycling ? What could " Clinic Members " do that would make this FORUM a force with views & expectations to be listened to and respected ?

As some are aware , i have been naive in thinking that The Cycling Sport wants rid of the hierachy of the UCI , they do little of consequence to make this a reality . Those on the UCI Management Committee prefer to listen to the holders of the keys to the treasury , than those pontificating about what they are unwilling to do .

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Analysis is the word you are looking for. As you know Hesjedal is doping have you reported him to the Canadian ADA? If not why not as you have the evidence!

Who is talking of Hesjedal? I question the months of none testing on any rider. I believe Barredo was not tested for 4 or 5 months and now is out of a job because of it.

How can one state the ABP is foul proof with such huge gaps in it?

Thanks for the correction on analysis. Much appreciated.

JV didn't say Riccò was his least favourite rider for him to see as a fan watching a race, just that he was an egregious hardcore doper. JV didn't say he thinks Cancellara was clean, either

And yet Ricco stayed inbetween the believable w/k.

 

[sniper]

JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting , something he is not paid to do , nor gives him a great deal of benefit .

disagree. being in here helps him tremendously, imo.
he's selling himself as the anti-doping figure in the peloton.
no time to look for links now, but mainstream media love to quote him as the anti-doping flagbearer who even engages with the fans on internet anti-doping forums. in other words, being in here significantly increases his credibility in the eyes of the mainstream sports media. You don't have to be a wizzard to see the advantages, also in terms of sponsorship. It's clever, really.

...And yet Ricco stayed inbetween the believable w/k.

the believable w/k, another one of vaughters' red herrings.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Yes. thankfully. I proposed the idea at the CCP around 2 years ago. Pat hated it. Luckily, the destabilization of power has caused the UCI to look at other ideas and consider other opinions. So, the idea of salary caps is being investigated very seriously now.

Jonathon, thanks for the information. So Pat thinks a salary cap would be bad. That is a shock. You probably knew the answer before you even brought up the idea to the guy.

I have always wondered why the organisation is called a Union because it appears from the outside looking in that they are not operating like any Union I am familiar with.

When a rider is under suspicion I wonder why they don't just get a Union Representative to contact the cyclist and his team publicly. Stop them from participating in any event until suspicion is resolved. Instead they (from the outside) look like they will either try to hide the information or pop the cyclist depending on that particular cyclist standing with Pat and Hein.

Has anyone ever suggested less punishment with a grade up with each offense? It would seem to make it less of a career ending situation , less all or nothing type atmosphere.

 

[sniper]

Who is talking of Hesjedal? I question the months of none testing on any rider.

important point. it's not as much about hesjedal as it is about the fallacy of the system, and how vaughters is in the habit of downplaying said fallacy.
basically the data don't suffice to say whether Ryder 2012 was clean or not, yet there comes jonathan assuring us he was clean because the data say so.