JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

It certainly did earn it's reputation.

It may be reality and not venom but some people sure seem angry at him.
He must love it. it's a losing battle with cynics. I hope he sticks around and invites some other team owners to stop by.

As for the reputation and importance of the Clinic In the industry/sport I wish I knew more....

JV loves it here

As for the other team owners. This place is read by all who can and talked about by all the rest of the pro cycling world.

As for 'venom', you tell that to the families of those who died from the peer pressure to dope in order to make it in the pro cycling world.

JV is naive to come on a forum and not expect fans to react with anger, cynicism and sarcasm towards a sport and one of its fromer dopers that has treated the fans with contempt at best, never mind the riders.

He says he wants to address it. Well it needs a revolution of action* to change something so ingrained in the sport that most who enable it think it is integral to the sport.

*Action = people in positions of power being removed from the sport for ever. I am talking UCI, DS, docs etc etc

 

[Semper Fidelis]

But he didn't come in here and state they were clean. The only liar here is you.
And a disclaimer is just that.
JV has given his reasons - you may not agree, and thats fine. But you cannot accuse someone of lying when they are not.


But I thought you said David was already in Skys pocket because of ST and that they paid for his trip?

I also think David Walsh is a sell out. Just an opinion not calling him a Liar yet. Fish Hack that he is, but I will be interested to see what is written.

By the way he is going to charge for his publication, guess he is all about the dollar bills and not so much about the CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER!

 

[Benotti69]

important point. it's not as much about hesjedal as it is about the fallacy of the system, and how vaughters is in the habit of downplaying said fallacy.
basically the data don't suffice to say whether Ryder 2012 was clean or not, yet there comes jonathan assuring us he was clean because the data say so.

JV is, imo, playing with the clinic half the time while using it for his own ends the other half, whether to be one of the 'lads', push his anti doping profile or gets off teasing hardcore fans.

But it is simple( if expensive) if a team wants to prove it is clean. Make the riders live in European mainland for the duration of the season from 2 weeks before their 1st European race to Lombardia and get them independently tested for a bloodpassport to then be published at the end of the year.

Yes this would probably be expensive but it only need to be done to team leaders and super doms. Obviously a team like Sky should do all as we are told they are all super talented but a team like Garmin needs only do a max of 10 riders.

That teams are not intrested in proving they are clean says a lot about the sport. They all think signing up to MPCC means they are clean. Bollixz.

If MPCC was about clean cycling they would be calling for similar and setting it up with wada. Doesn't need UCI and if worked UCI would have to adopt it.

JV calls the current situation a utopia, i think he is blinded by Hesjedal's Giro, which he probably never foresaw for a team like his, but as a fans, the answer to how that was achieved is the same answer levelled at all past Gt winners with few exceptions, till something proves it different. Hesjedal aint no LeMond.

 

[horsinabout]

JV loves it here

As for the other team owners. This place is read by all who can and talked about by all the rest of the pro cycling world.

As for 'venom', you tell that to the families of those who died from the peer pressure to dope in order to make it in the pro cycling world.

JV is naive to come on a forum and not expect fans to react with anger, cynicism and sarcasm towards a sport and one of its fromer dopers that has treated the fans with contempt at best, never mind the riders.

He says he wants to address it. Well it needs a revolution of action* to change something so ingrained in the sport that most who enable it think it is integral to the sport.

*Action = people in positions of power being removed from the sport for ever. I am talking UCI, DS, docs etc etc

JV talks a lot about his experiences......which is admirable, and telling.

Because he is still involved in high level professional cycling, there is a kind of juxtaposition in what he writes, regarding his experiences from the past and now in the present.

He is clashing here in the forum with idealism from posters and what he really knows is going on in "the real world" of pro racing.

That's all I have to say on that, Forest Gump

 

[mastersracer]

The insults you preface your comments with betray your ignorance: there is nothing fundamentally flawed about the data points used in the Wiggins critical power plot.

I was asking a basic question, which none of the people here claiming the passport is useless has answered. You reply by citing Ashenden's paper, which is a completely orthogonal issue. In fact, if you actually read that paper you'd know that they chose a testing frequency that was near optimal, in the sense that a higher testing frequency would overfit the data. That paper is about sensitivity and the use of a 99.9% threshold.

Dear Wiggo responded with a similarly irrelevant reply and didn't even address the question. He seems to think there is something inherently wrong with the adaptive model that is used to iterate the predictive distribution of expected values and specifically the initial distribution that is used, but the fact is, these values are based on population values, which is a perfectly acceptable 'prior' to utilize.

I see you show again your lack on statistical analyze, just like at the critical power model on Wiggins, where even years were left out.

But for the sake of it, a hypothetical rider:

Nov 12, 2011:
Hb: 16.0
Hct: 44.9
Retic: 1.93

Jan 12, 2012:
Hb: 16.1
Hct: 46.9
Retic: 1.66

That would give you a great baseline, than the next results would seem credible:
Feb 27, 2012
Hb: 14.6
Hct: 42.1
Retic: 1.13

May 2, 2012
Hb: 16.0
Hct: 46.0
Retic: 1.76

May 12, 2012
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.3
Retic: 1.56

But, what if, in december 2011 the results would be:
Hb: 14.1
Hct: 42.4
Retic: 1.11

That would really screw up the thing, wouldnt it?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21336951

But hey, what does Ashenden know?
But he went uphill within human limits, ergo, he was not doping.

 

[DirtyWorks]

JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting .

No he doesn't. To be fair to the guy, sports fans in general can be kind of a weird premise for interactions with others, and your fawning is a good example of that. That said, Somewhere in this thread, he uses "Kiddos" as a reference for forum participants. That alone says volumes. It's fine if you wish to pretend otherwise, but it is pretending.

 

[blackcat]

JV loves it here

As for the other team owners. This place is read by all who can and talked about by all the rest of the pro cycling world.

As for 'venom', you tell that to the families of those who died from the peer pressure to dope in order to make it in the pro cycling world.

JV is naive to come on a forum and not expect fans to react with anger, cynicism and sarcasm towards a sport and one of its fromer dopers that has treated the fans with contempt at best, never mind the riders.

He says he wants to address it. Well it needs a revolution of action* to change something so ingrained in the sport that most who enable it think it is integral to the sport.

*Action = people in positions of power being removed from the sport for ever. I am talking UCI, DS, docs etc etc

think that sample size could be counted on one-hand, even if that much.

if you read Martin Hardie's "I wish I was 21 now", the doping is not really an ethical issue for any concerned.

Tho as you assert, health indeed is.

Hardie shows that this aspect of the sport as tied to the individual becomes intimately involved in the self's identity as a cyclist.

We always hear about the deaths in the lowlands, specifically Netherlands, when epo was entering the peloton before the athlete's understood how to use it.

But the documentation is sketchy to non-existent.

how many athletes have you heard of dying in their sleep? Fabrice Salanson for Brioche. Kim Kirchen for HTC (nigh)

I know this is post 'crit threshold, and now when the informal knowledge on how to use it as a sports performance drug is now well known.

But in other sports, athletics for one, would not their still be an existing pattern of athletes going to sleep and never waking up like Salanson, or these (perhaps apocryphal) Dutch cyclists in the very early 90s.

And does the literature NOT EXIST, because it was not apocryphal (double negative), but that coroners, doctors, and the administrators of the sport were unaware of the hema viscous epo cycling link?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The insults you preface your comments with betray your ignorance: there is nothing fundamentally flawed about the data points used in the Wiggins critical power plot.

I was asking a basic question, which none of the people here claiming the passport is useless has answered. You reply by citing Ashenden's paper, which is a completely orthogonal issue. In fact, if you actually read that paper you'd know that they chose a testing frequency that was near optimal, in the sense that a higher testing frequency would overfit the data. That paper is about sensitivity and the use of a 99.9% threshold.

Dear Wiggo responded with a similarly irrelevant reply and didn't even address the question. He seems to think there is something inherently wrong with the adaptive model that is used to iterate the predictive distribution of expected values and specifically the initial distribution that is used, but the fact is, these values are based on population values, which is a perfectly acceptable 'prior' to utilize.

You have some serious issues man. Dodging, dodging, dodging. But I am glad I did adress the question.

You must be a great physician, shall we call you masterphysician? I know another great physician, maybe even professor, Ed Coyle, do you know him? He is still not sure if EPO helped pharmstrong with his efficiency.

 

[blackcat]

But it is simple( if expensive) if a team wants to prove it is clean. Make the riders live in European mainland for the duration of the season from 2 weeks before their 1st European race to Lombardia and get them independently tested for a bloodpassport to then be published at the end of the year.

no, cant prove the negative.

ashenden has already researched this and found as such.

you are placing a threshold too high. it cant be done.

health should be the priority. no catching dopers, but restricting their ability to harm themself for us the collective fan.

inasmuch as this, i applaud the bio passport.

for anti-doping and moralistic pr and myths. no, throw it out.

 

[mastersracer]

You have some serious issues man. Dodging, dodging, dodging. But I am glad I did adress the question.

You must be a great physician, shall we call you masterphysician? I know another great physician, maybe even professor, Ed Coyle, do you know him? He is still not sure if EPO helped pharmstrong with his efficiency.

Actually, I am a professor, not a physician. As I stated elsewhere, my work involves, among other things, statistical analyses of large time-series datasets, most recently using canonical correlation analysis. But, that's besides the point. Again, you reply with personal attacks that simply reveal you have no substantive replies. You don't seem able to provide a substantive answer to why the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb in RH's passport invalidates the approach (which is what many others here stated), or what Ashenden's analysis has to do whatsoever with the issue. Or even why Dear Wiggo's charge is a red herring.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

how many athletes have you heard of dying in their sleep? Fabrice Salanson for Brioche. Kim Kirchen for HTC (nigh)

<snip>

http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/epo.shtml

Between 1987, when EPO became available in Europe, and 1990, 18 Dutch and Belgian cyclists died suddenly, raising suspicions that naive users did not realize they were playing with fire.

I doubt anybody knows the true number. 18 in 3 years is mind blowing.

 

[blackcat]

I do, I know of that.

but like more info, and primary source. someone who has coroners reports etc.

I want gil grissom

 

[DirtyWorks]

That doesn't answer the question I asked: you and others are making a big deal of the fact that no samples were collected between Nov and Feb (out of competition) from RH. Since people are claiming this makes the program 'corrupt' and 'useless'

You are misinterpreting the lack of samples as corrupting the system.

The bio-passport is a sham. Period.

Even if enough samples were collected, we know the UCI isn't routing clearly positive samples to experts for final disposition.

We also know that "too normal" samples have been used to catch other athletes and yet the UCI claims the APMU was not configured to flag "too normal" results.

Check the WADA documentation for the method they are using to analyze samples. I believe it is still a Bayesian method. We know that overall test rates are down. That makes Bayesian tests unreliable. I know just enough statistics to get me into lots of trouble, so if it's an important issue for you then get to know the APMU tests (if they are published) and Bayesian sample size calculation.

Don't focus on just the analysis part of the system because that's just one tiny and unimportant part. The whole system is a sham.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Actually, I am a professor, not a physician. As I stated elsewhere, my work involves, among other things, statistical analyses of large time-series datasets, most recently using canonical correlation analysis. But, that's besides the point. Again, you reply with personal attacks that simply reveal you have no substantive replies. You don't seem able to provide a substantive answer to why the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb in RH's passport invalidates the approach (which is what many others here stated), or what Ashenden's analysis has to do whatsoever with the issue. Or even why Dear Wiggo's charge is a red herring.

Oke Ed, glad we established that.

Where am I insulting? I say/state, in cycling, read 'in cycling', you can do a lot, again: A LOT, in two month with regards to preparation. NOT being tested for TWO months is insane with regards to that. Especially if that is also being used for that foul proof ABP. Pharmstrong made his comeback based on that great ABP, spiking his markers for a year so he could have a 'credible' blood profile. But I guess I do not have to tell you anything on that fraud.

And, again, I am not talking about Hesjedal, did you see my point with regards to Barredo?

Ashendens analysis does not work the other way around? Ergo, take blood out of your body does nothing to crit/hgblevels/retics? That is a new to me.

how many athletes have you heard of dying in their sleep? Fabrice Salanson for Brioche. Kim Kirchen for HTC (nigh)

With every new variant on EPO there are death's. Around 1990, around 2003/2004, just wait.

 

[blackcat]

just for the record. I want athletes' health protected and paramount in anti-doping priority

 

[Franklin]

Actually, I am a professor, not a physician. As I stated elsewhere, my work involves, among other things, statistical analyses of large time-series datasets, most recently using canonical correlation analysis.

So how large is the chance a TdF winner is clean considering the large set of statistical data?

We both know the answer.

Faith or fact, if you are a honest statician you would say. "I hope he's clean, but it's very unlikely that he is clean. The historical data is squarely against Wiggins". But you are banging on your belief and faith, so I think your claim to expertise here is an empty shell. You do not use your brain, you just follow what you want to be true.

 

[frenchfry]

http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/epo.shtml





I doubt anybody knows the true number. 18 in 3 years is mind blowing.

Add in those who have died since 2000 and you could put together an entire pro team (or two).

 

[Benotti69]

You are misinterpreting the lack of samples as corrupting the system.

The bio-passport is a sham. Period.

Even if enough samples were collected, we know the UCI isn't routing clearly positive samples to experts for final disposition.

We also know that "too normal" samples have been used to catch other athletes and yet the UCI claims the APMU was not configured to flag "too normal" results.

Check the WADA documentation for the method they are using to analyze samples. I believe it is still a Bayesian method. We know that overall test rates are down. That makes Bayesian tests unreliable. I know just enough statistics to get me into lots of trouble, so if it's an important issue for you then get to know the APMU tests (if they are published) and Bayesian sample size calculation.

Don't focus on just the analysis part of the system because that's just one tiny and unimportant part. The whole system is a sham.

This is what I totally agree with and it totally makes a mockery of what people say about the racig being cleanER, meaning the doping is having no effect.

BS.

We have no evidence that the doping is so low that it is having no effect. There is no way to tell as the testing, standard and Passport is not working or being enforced properly.

 

[Benotti69]

Add in those who have died since 2000 and you could put together an entire pro team (or two).

And in all the talk of doping their deaths have been forgotten.

Every cycling jersey should have a black armband to remember those who died from doping. It should be worn as a reminder.

 

[mastersracer]

First, this is about Ryder - there was a specific charge made about his passport that was directed to JV, the subject of this thread. The charge was the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb, which was claimed to reveal why the program was 'corrupt' and 'useless.' I was asking for those making the claim to justify their assertion. None has been forthcoming.

You quoted Ashenden's paper. I indicated it has nothing to do with testing frequency. You just cited his paper again. You made another basic error. That study concerned EPO microdosing, not transfusing.

Oke Ed, glad we established that.

Where am I insulting? I say/state, in cycling, read 'in cycling', you can do a lot, again: A LOT, in two month with regards to preparation. NOT being tested for TWO months is insane with regards to that. Especially if that is also being used for that foul proof ABP. Pharmstrong made his comeback based on that great ABP, spiking his markers for a year so he could have a 'credible' blood profile. But I guess I do not have to tell you anything on that fraud.

And, again, I am not talking about Hesjedal, did you see my point with regards to Barredo?

Ashendens analysis does not work the other way around? Ergo, take blood out of your body does nothing to crit/hgblevels/retics? That is a new to me.With every new variant on EPO there are death's. Around 1990, around 2003/2004, just wait.

 

[DirtyWorks]

First, this is about Ryder

My response works for Ryder's situation too.

I'm going to assume you replied before seeing my response. If not, I'm not sure what the point would be to keep going at this.

- there was a specific charge made about his passport that was directed to JV, the subject of this thread. The charge was the lack of a data point between Nov and Feb, which was claimed to reveal why the program was 'corrupt' and 'useless.' I was asking for those making the claim to justify their assertion. None has been forthcoming.

Knowing what little we do about doping, that's window with no testing is a fantastic opportunity to dope. As blood transfusions are better understood now, it's a great time to store a few cc's.

Even if you want to ignore the fact the bio-passport is a sham, the phrase "never tested positive" has taken on a new meaning for a reason. Admitted career-spanning dopers have never tested positive.

 

[ChrisE]

JV talks a lot about his experiences......which is admirable, and telling.

Because he is still involved in high level professional cycling, there is a kind of juxtaposition in what he writes, regarding his experiences from the past and now in the present.

He is clashing here in the forum with idealism from posters and what he really knows is going on in "the real world" of pro racing.

And what does he really know vs what he is saying in here? BTW, how do we know this is really JV?

Anyway, the whole clean schtick and his presence in here has always been an enigma to me. Why does he profess clean cycling, with the implication being the others are dirty? Why would this be good for the sport from a sponsorship side...why would Garmin sponsor a team that will be competing against dopers and thus losing alot, and being associated with a sport so full of dopers that a selling point of certain teams is no PED use? But, they don't lose alot...they even won a GT last year.

To sniper etal, why would JV say anything other than what he is saying about SKY, and either sound like a sore loser or open himself up legally, or be ushered out of the sport pronto? And, how can he defend his clean rider's winning GT's against doped competition if he starts saying everybody else is doping?

What does he gain by posting here, opening himself up to contradictions and criticism? I asked early on in this thread a question, which never got answered until a few pages ago; why ask for so much more testing $ if things are clean? I guess it took him a few months to come up with an answer now....it is to thwart off future improved drug use else this clean time will go away. This is the first I have heard about this. How novel, and not too believable IMO.

I gravitate back and forth on whether this guy is really doing alot to improve the sport or if he is full of ****, ****ing with everybody. That means the forum, the sport, everybody. Coming in here and not being able to say certain things or promoting cleanlilness, rightfully so in my mind with the SKY thing because of the situaton, is a no win situation.

Promoting cleanliness in the sport while qualifying the shadows is a no win situation. Asking for 3x more testing $ while winning GT's makes no sense. If I was him I would just STFU but he keeps on. It makes no sense to me.

Of course I also stated LA should just pay people off and go off in the distance and admit nothing, before his buffoonery on Oprah. I don't have a good recent track record in predicting what idiots will do or why they do what they do. There is absolutely no benefit for him being in here and alot of downside, which makes me want to believe him even if I think he is an idiot for doing so. That flies in the face of the factual inconsistencies pointed out by non-starstruck posters which cannot be ignored, and casts doubt.

 

[blackcat]

ooorrhhhrhhr

Chris E just demolished my sockpuppet.

I thought I had everyone fooled.

chapeau to Chris E, must better than Chris H over at Daily Peloton.

 

[Catwhoorg]

And what does he really know vs what he is saying in here? BTW, how do we know this is really JV?

Its the same account used in an official 'Q&A hosted by the site.

One can never be sure that the person at the other end of the internet is actually who they say there are, but this is pretty strong evidence that this is indeed JV.

 

[ChrisE]

ooorrhhhrhhr

Chris E just demolished my sockpuppet.

I thought I had everyone fooled.

chapeau to Chris E, must better than Chris H over at Daily Peloton.

Better than H? Is that like being the best assclown?

I was the best Chris over there, period.