JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

The mysterious "numbers" that's no one has seen.

Sounds like Lance's extra big heart.

JV you really do try and sell ice to the Eskimos.

Give it a rest.

btw - why would anyone on this forum have access to chris froome's vo2 max testing from his barloworld time? it's not mysterious. you guys just aren't involved in professional cycling, so you don't have access. hardly odd.

 

[thehog]

Every guy you've ever seen in the top 5 at the Tour has an extra big heart. left ventricle size is highly correlated to being successful in endurance sports....although not always.

I'm not selling anything. Seriously, I don't care if you disagree. It's totally your choice.

It's alright JV. I'm good.

Froomedawg and Sky are killing your team.

You're lookin' like FDJ these days.

Don't you think that matters? I wouldn't want my team been shown up by a guy who could barely climb a mountain 2 years ago and was giving up his bike to sprinters.

You should call it out. It's not right. Or at least have a word to the other teams and get this guy tested.

 

[roundabout]

Bjarne Riis came from a country with little to no cycling culture at the time.

 

[Rollthedice]

JV, I understand your position on Froome as a consequence of political correctness because you are in the business and not because you disclosed some facts that sustain your opinion, which I think are easily dismissible.

 

[thehog]

btw - why would anyone on this forum have access to chris froome's vo2 max testing from his barloworld time? it's not mysterious. you guys just aren't involved in professional cycling, so you don't have access. hardly odd.

Yes because professional cycling is a closed group not available to the public

Riiiight.

After everything with Lance and "transparency" lets keep Pro Cycling locked down.

Seriously?

 

[hrotha]

Yes because professional cycling is a closed group not available to the public

Hey, if Aaron Brown could get involved...

 

[JV1973]

JV, just wanted to pull you on a few points.

Froome was racing in South Africa when he was a junior, not Kenya. I am pretty sure that SA has as much of a racing scene as places like Ireland, NZ, Slovakia etc. Sorry but the growing up in Kenya line does not fly as he didn't really start racing until he moved to SA.

You mentioned that 2001 Cycle Sport article re Armstrong numbers, I still have the hard copy of that and indeed read it recently. Sorry but that article seemed to be backing Armstrong more than anything. There is not one subtlety in it that I would have thought you were hinting that Armstrong was doping. Maybe someone reading it knowing the numbers might have said oh, that's BS but your average joe like me didn't have a clue especially at a time when numbers were not as public or relevant as they are now.

I have said before that I am far less cynical than most on here and I give you the benefit of the doubt most time's but I have a very hard time buying the Froome transformation more than anything, regardless of whether he is within the limits or not. As other's have pointed out, the Santa comparison is legit and your explanation of the differences in the two cases is very weak stuff at best. I don't claim to know the in's and out's but your explanation on Froome would not convince me in the slightest.

Just wanted to add that the lack of development because of his background could as easily be applied to someone like Bjarne Riis as he came from a country with little to no cycling culture at the time. Poor Bjarne never got to go a development center in Aigle.

Yeah, fair points. I don't know Chris' junior history as well as you do, I just viewed him as extremely poorly coached when he was racing for barloworld. He looked really bad on the bike.

What age did he start racing?

as for the lance article, like i said, lemond got my point and spoke with me about it, not many others did. it was very subtle. but what was certain? it pleased lemond and ****ed off lance. still, not saying that it made its point well.

 

[JV1973]

Yes because professional cycling is a closed group not available to the public

Riiiight.

After everything with Lance and "transparency" lets keep Pro Cycling locked down.

Seriously?

Go ask Chris for his medical records. Fine by me. Sheesh... I'm not his dad, eh?

My point is, its not surprising you don't have access to the info.

 

[JV1973]

JV, I understand your position on Froome as a consequence of political correctness because you are in the business and not because you disclosed some facts that sustain your opinion, which I think are easily dismissible.

They are completely dismissible. I've got very little "hard" evidence either way. as I've said about a dozen times.

 

[JV1973]

It's alright JV. I'm good.

Froomedawg and Sky are killing your team.

You're lookin' like FDJ these days.

Don't you think that matters? I wouldn't want my team been shown up by a guy who could barely climb a mountain 2 years ago and was giving up his bike to sprinters.

You should call it out. It's not right. Or at least have a word to the other teams and get this guy tested.

teams don't have the ability to ask WADA to test a certain person. We can report suspicion and then the OOC testing might be more targeted on that athlete, depending on blood values.

let's see how he does tomorrow.

FDJ... ouch.

 

[JV1973]

JV, just wanted to pull you on a few points.

Froome was racing in South Africa when he was a junior, not Kenya. I am pretty sure that SA has as much of a racing scene as places like Ireland, NZ, Slovakia etc. Sorry but the growing up in Kenya line does not fly as he didn't really start racing until he moved to SA.

You mentioned that 2001 Cycle Sport article re Armstrong numbers, I still have the hard copy of that and indeed read it recently. Sorry but that article seemed to be backing Armstrong more than anything. There is not one subtlety in it that I would have thought you were hinting that Armstrong was doping. Maybe someone reading it knowing the numbers might have said oh, that's BS but your average joe like me didn't have a clue especially at a time when numbers were not as public or relevant as they are now.

I have said before that I am far less cynical than most on here and I give you the benefit of the doubt most time's but I have a very hard time buying the Froome transformation more than anything, regardless of whether he is within the limits or not. As other's have pointed out, the Santa comparison is legit and your explanation of the differences in the two cases is very weak stuff at best. I don't claim to know the in's and out's but your explanation on Froome would not convince me in the slightest.

Just wanted to add that the lack of development because of his background could as easily be applied to someone like Bjarne Riis as he came from a country with little to no cycling culture at the time. Poor Bjarne never got to go a development center in Aigle.

btw - my case re froome wouldn't convince me either.

but, I am allowed to have an opinion, right?

 

[thehog]

FDJ... ouch.

 

[JV1973]

OK... I need to step away for a bit. Wasting my time defending a guy I don't really even know that well on a team I don't really like.

That just proves I am a moron. No need for MORE proof.

Have a good one, JV

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, fair points. I don't know Chris' junior history as well as you do, I just viewed him as extremely poorly coached when he was racing for barloworld. He looked really bad on the bike.

What age did he start racing?

as for the lance article, like i said, lemond got my point and spoke with me about it, not many others did. it was very subtle. but what was certain? it pleased lemond and ****ed off lance. still, not saying that it made its point well.

I think he raced Mountain bikes in Kenya as a teenager but moved to the road in SA at 17ish I think, would need to check facts to be sure.

I am aware of a rider who has said that in testing his numbers are equal to a particular top 5 Tour finisher but this particular rider in question has not even made it to the Tour but can produce the odd top performance. He has suffered a number of injuries, illnesses and from over-training in his career but nobody seem's to be able to transform him like has happened with Froome. I guess that is why I am suspicious of the Froome thing, why just him???

 

[will10]

Your point is quite reasonable. Why did WADA and UCI target Santa heavily, and Froome is not as targeted? Why did all riders applaud Santa getting caught and don't say a word about Froome producing same power?

Totally valid.

I don't have a great explanation for you.

but I'll try:

Santa had a long career in Italian amateurs with good results in shorter stage races and one day events. He's been around for a while. A very coached and maximized talent. When this deviated from the well established mean, considerably, it raised eyebrows. Santa always had good days, he just never had good weeks.

Froome has less of a mean established.

Froome looks like a cat 2 on the bike, but he used to look like a cat 5. He's clearly not maximizing efficiency and hasn't been coached as such from a young age. But he's improving very fast, as he is finally addressing weak spots that wouldn't have been understood and isolated on a team like barloworld, as they would assume this would have occurred at a younger age.

He's always tested like a freak, but I think it was dismissed as anomalous, as he wasn't putting it into the road early on. remember, i tried to get him in 2011, i was just a few days too late, as I wasn't actually in Spain when the vuelta started and i didn't think so much would change in the first few days of vuelta (I was wrong!!!)

Also, he had big issues with parasites earlier in his career. Getting that under control changed him a lot. maybe they were like the spider that bit spiderman? kidding...

Anyhow, short answer is, i don't really know, but my gut says that it's ok and that he's real. But he's the only one who really knows.

Appreciate the reply JV, thank you. Honestly, I wish you'd signed Froome. If he is the rough diamond, once-in-a-generation talent that we are led to believe he is, then I wish he'd got your team's jersey on. It would make all these dots a lot more difficult to join up.

 

[JV1973]

I think he raced Mountain bikes in Kenya as a teenager but moved to the road in SA at 17ish I think, would need to check facts to be sure.

I am aware of a rider who has said that in testing his numbers are equal to a particular top 5 Tour finisher but this particular rider in question has not even made it to the Tour but can produce the odd top performance. He has suffered a number of injuries, illnesses and from over-training in his career but nobody seem's to be able to transform him like has happened with Froome. I guess that is why I am suspicious of the Froome thing, why just him???

Numbers don't show durability, ability to improve, injury resistance, hormonal and immune system robustness. That's why testing is limited when it comes to GTs.

it is useful but limited.

ok, bye. email me if you want to chat re theory on what "talent" really is. I find it fascinating.

 

[whittashau]

So how talented is Froome then based on the numbers you saw? Similar to Contador's numbers or do they even blow his out of the water?

 

[Parrot23]

Also, just to be clear, his vo2 max could be 80 and he could still perform as he does, if he had great efficiency and lactate clearance. Vo2 max isn't a great indicator of much. I shouldn't use it. Sorry.

....If vo2 was the best indicator, I should have been better than Lemond.

Derek Clayton, 1969 marathon, 2:08. Vo2 max 69.

Frank Shorter, Vo2 max 71.

Clinic guys should enjoy this.

 

[blackcat]

btw - my case re froome wouldn't convince me either.

but, I am allowed to have an opinion, right?

pick n pay in south africa is the biggest gran fondo in the world. capo being running nigh on two decades, and there was a decent tour sponsored by something like inatech about a decade back.

rich culture.

produced the angriest man in the peloton. without the prosthetic legz

is it gran fondo not grand fondo. only levi has the right to call his the levi GRAND fondo. Let
LEVI
ride y'all.

 

[blackcat]

Derek Clayton, 1969 marathon, 2:08. Vo2 max 69.

Frank Shorter, Vo2 max 71.

Clinic guys should enjoy this.

he trained right on his threshold. never went for the equivalent of long slow rides or recovery rides. he was au bloc, right on the lactic threshold. lives in melbourne now.

 

[BroDeal]

All this Froome is not going anywhere.

One of the things I find interesting is the pattern of performance of Garmin's riders.

Zabriskie starts out as expected when he joins. At one point he was one the best time trialists in the world. Supposedly he goes off the sauce and he is still pretty good, but not like before. This would be expected if he stopped doping and many others did not. But we would also expect to see a bump up in performance if the sport had cleaned itself up (mostly). I don't see that. He seems to be about the same relative level he was a few years ago.

The same can be said for Millar. Still a decent time trialist but his chance of winning anything significant is about what Zabriskie's chances are, perhaps a bit better. Again, even though he supposedly stopped doping years ago there does not seem to be any relative increase in performance as the rest of the peloton cleaned up.

Vande Velde is a bigger anomaly. He places fourth at the TdF in 2008. This is strange because he has never shown signs of being capable of this before and 2008 was a CERA-fest. He has decent performance in 2009 (taking into account his injury) but then nothing. The peloton gets cleaner (supposedly) but Vande Velde seems incapable of gaining any advantage from it.

Tommy D.'s performance has a huge slump for two or three years after he reportedly stopped doping then he continued with GT results comparable to results before he stopped. This is a much more believable pattern. At the same time it does leave questions like WTF happened during this year's Giro after Hesjedal left. Maybe it is hard to draw any conclusions from Tomy D. because his performance is always a crapshoot.

Hesjedal might have a more reasonable pattern of performance if the sport had cleaned up, but we have to take into account that the 2011 Giro was one of the worst Giros I can remember. It was the Giro's version of the 2009 Tour.

Overall I don't see the pattern I would expect if the riders went off the juice then at a later point cycling mostly cleaned up.

 

[blackcat]

Yeah, fair points. I don't know Chris' junior history as well as you do, I just viewed him as extremely poorly coached when he was racing for barloworld. He looked really bad on the bike.

What age did he start racing?

as for the lance article, like i said, lemond got my point and spoke with me about it, not many others did. it was very subtle. but what was certain? it pleased lemond and ****ed off lance. still, not saying that it made its point well.

he does not look exactly that good off the bike neither. /no homo

 

[pmcg76]

Numbers don't show durability, ability to improve, injury resistance, hormonal and immune system robustness. That's why testing is limited when it comes to GTs.

it is useful but limited.

ok, bye. email me if you want to chat re theory on what "talent" really is. I find it fascinating.

Well I guess this is what frustrates some people on here.

On one side you are defending Froome saying he had big numbers but couldn't translate it to the road.

But now you are saying test numbers are not necessarily an accurate indication of GT potential anyway.

So even though he had good numbers, there was nothing to suggest that Froome was going to be the rider he now is but somewhere along the line, he went from mediocre to amazing because???

I will try to look at things logically but you are not exactly helping the flow of logic on this one.

 

[hrotha]

Well I guess this is what frustrates some people on here.

On one side you are defending Froome saying he had big numbers but couldn't translate it to the road.

But now you are saying test numbers are not necessarily an accurate indication of GT potential anyway.

So even though he had good numbers, there was nothing to suggest that Froome was going to be the rider he now is but somewhere along the line, he went from mediocre to amazing because???

I will try to look at things logically but you are not exactly helping the flow of logic on this one.

I think the point is that you need more than just good numbers, but that doesn't mean you don't need the good numbers.

 

[blackcat]

Jv, we will never agree so here is a question. DO you massage your sideburns with common onion and cooking oil(like people massage their moustache in Rajasthan, India) and do you recommend a special kind of shampoo for it?

quoted for posterity.

genius.

here are a couple of competitors in the facial hair stakes