JV talks, sort of

[hrotha]

Maybe the problem here is that JV can't say certain stuff because of the legal implications. I once asked him about a completely hypothetical rider called Adalberto Cantador and got a pretty straightforward answer - maybe it's time to ask him about a hypothetical Christian Vroomen and a hypothetical Team Skype.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

JV what do you think about Contador today and post ban?

Since he is still winning GTs do you think he is still on the juice or did he always have the good numbers?

Well, JV already told us AC is the most gifted rider (while justifying his interest in signing Contador). He can't say the most gifted rider needs to dope to win GT's in the new era of cycling.

I know Inigo San Millan always told me that Contador was the most gifted cyclist ever tested

 

[The Hitch]

Maybe the problem here is that JV can't say certain stuff because of the legal implications. I once asked him about a completely hypothetical rider called Adalberto Cantador

or if you want to know about purito just ask about a hypothetical rider called Daniel Moreno.

Anyway what was said about Adalberto?

 

[ElChingon]

Maybe the problem here is that JV can't say certain stuff because of the legal implications. I once asked him about a completely hypothetical rider called Adalberto Cantador and got a pretty straightforward answer - maybe it's time to ask him about a hypothetical Christian Vroomen and a hypothetical Team Skype.

That would actually be a viable sponsor.

 

[whittashau]

or if you want to know about purito just ask about a hypothetical rider called Daniel Moreno.

Anyway what was said about Adalberto?

Here:

Legally that solves it. Being quoted is still possible, although at legal jeopardy to the journalist.

Anyhow, I have no idea what rider you are referring to. There is a rider that I would opine, not more, that probably doped in his career. But when hiring any rider, the question I ask is not "did they dope?" its instead "can they win clean?".... The rider that I'm talking about probably fits into this category, despite past doping. But, since I've never tested them nor seen any test results of theirs, I cannot say this conclusively and it's just a guess.

I very much doubt JV wants a bunch of questions about hypothetical riders though

 

[blackcat]

That would actually be a viable sponsor.

i prefer Team ChatRoulette

http://usir.salford.ac.uk/10355/

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

JV what do you think about Contador today and post ban?

Since he is still winning GTs do you think he is still on the juice or did he always have the good numbers?

I remember reading an article in 2006 or so regarding Manolo Saiz and how he tested both LL Sanchez and Contador as youngsters and both were off the charts.

 

[Ferminal]

All this Froome is not going anywhere.

One of the things I find interesting is the pattern of performance of Garmin's riders.

Zabriskie starts out as expected when he joins. At one point he was one the best time trialists in the world. Supposedly he goes off the sauce and he is still pretty good, but not like before. This would be expected if he stopped doping and many others did not. But we would also expect to see a bump up in performance if the sport had cleaned itself up (mostly). I don't see that. He seems to be about the same relative level he was a few years ago.

The same can be said for Millar. Still a decent time trialist but his chance of winning anything significant is about what Zabriskie's chances are, perhaps a bit better. Again, even though he supposedly stopped doping years ago there does not seem to be any relative increase in performance as the rest of the peloton cleaned up.

Vande Velde is a bigger anomaly. He places fourth at the TdF in 2008. This is strange because he has never shown signs of being capable of this before and 2008 was a CERA-fest. He has decent performance in 2009 (taking into account his injury) but then nothing. The peloton gets cleaner (supposedly) but Vande Velde seems incapable of gaining any advantage from it.

Tommy D.'s performance has a huge slump for two or three years after he reportedly stopped doping then he continued with GT results comparable to results before he stopped. This is a much more believable pattern. At the same time it does leave questions like WTF happened during this year's Giro after Hesjedal left. Maybe it is hard to draw any conclusions from Tomy D. because his performance is always a crapshoot.

Hesjedal might have a more reasonable pattern of performance if the sport had cleaned up, but we have to take into account that the 2011 Giro was one of the worst Giros I can remember. It was the Giro's version of the 2009 Tour.

Overall I don't see the pattern I would expect if the riders went off the juice then at a later point cycling mostly cleaned up.

CVV won USPCCCCC, that is equivalent to a Tour quasi-podium isn't it?

Pretty amazing how one rider can have such a pronounced single career peak. Especially when it comes in a period post-doping.

 

[the sceptic]

I remember reading an article in 2006 or so regarding Manolo Saiz and how he tested both LL Sanchez and Contador as youngsters and both were off the charts.

Some will say that they were doping even then so the numbers are meaningless.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

CVV won USPCCCCC, that is equivalent to a Tour quasi-podium isn't it?

Pretty amazing how one rider can have such a pronounced single career peak. Especially when it comes in a period post-doping.

I'm not weighing in on CVV, but this is a case where that obnoxious forum attitude of "if you haven't ridden Alpe in under 50 minutes yourself, then you can't talk"/"have you ever raced a GT?" (comments like this don't show up here, but do in other forums) has a little weight.

I'd say that there are fewer examples of steady progression to a lifetime best than an inconsistent, jerky, scatterplot of performances year to year, across all levels: This is something that I think anyone here who has raced can attest to; if not themselves, then a majority of friends and teammates.

I didn't post in the thread about our threshold for accepting the peloton as clean, but inconsistency is regular, and should be expected of clean athletes.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Some will say that they were doping even then so the numbers are meaningless.

Certainly possible. I don't believe a word Saiz says anyway.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ok, hardly best friends. The Wiggins "transfer" was probably the nastiest legal cat fight I've ever seen. And I grew up with lawyers.

2M gbp transfer fee didn't sweeten the deal?

 

[hrotha]

Here:


I very much doubt JV wants a bunch of questions about hypothetical riders though

Probably not, but I like coming up with goofy alternative names for cyclists.

 

[Ferminal]

I'd say that there are fewer examples of steady progression to a lifetime best than an inconsistent, jerky, scatterplot of performances year to year, across all levels:

I'm not talking about progression, I'm talking about hitting top "form". Once or twice in a 15 year career isn't exactly the norm is it?

Indurain and Armstrong with very safe and heavy regimes never had a problem. Pre-EPO not many had a problem. Sastre, Evans, Menchov, Valverde, Contador, Basso, Vinokourov, Schleck, Sanchez have been at their best or very close to in how many GTs? Even Zubeldia fits. Look at GT top 5s for the last ten years, I'm sure the vast majority have at least two or three very similar performances, either that or they were banned before they had a chance. A few in the Vuelta like Santi and Aitor Gonzalez. Cobo too it looks like.

 

[thehog]

I feel for CVV. After years of rampant doping on 3 different teams he was suspended for 6 months in the off season.

I mean how did he come back from that?

The heartache. The isolation. How did he do it?

I really feel for him.

 

[Ripper]

...

Editing my previous question

My questions are not Froome per se, but teams in general. Like you've noted, there's a lot of variables to making a GT rider. What if a certain team seems to nail all the variables for their GT team, in some ways like USPS did. Most of their reasoning has really been hype and BS. There's no one thing for me, it's the whole package.

It's when a team just seems to ride the whole peloton off their wheels. It's a bit hard to believe.

Your thoughts?

 

[gooner]

I feel for CVV. After years of rampant doping on 3 different teams he was suspended for 6 months in the off season.

I mean how did he come back from that?

The heartache. The isolation. How did he so it?

I really feel for him.

Lets not slag off a fellow who helped get rid of Lance, Del Moral, Ferrari and hopefully Bruyneel for good.

This is for the good of the sport.

Come on Hog. I agree with your suspicion on Sky. I don't believe Froome one bit and it's not just based on past experiences with Armstrong and USPS. I think it is the biggest transformation I seen in any sport since Michelle Smith in swimming and that's saying something. I don't buy it like you but don't criticise the guys that got rid of the bad apples in the sport. Surely you are happy with this. I am and it's not easy to take a stance on this with the current environment in the sport.

Welcome it.

 

[rinse clear]

Mr JV has done some good for the sport good on him and happy 40th to him and hope the MBA is not driving him mad yet.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Froome grew up in BFE Africa... what junior races was he supposed to tear up? For a guy with little experience, he did quite well early on. There's a big difference between the progression of a guy that starts racing at 12 and grows up in a cycling country like France and a guy that starts at 17 in Kenya.

Also, Vo2 max is developed, not totally inherited. It is genetic to a degree, but people can develop it. And heres the tricky part: Some people have the genetic capacity for greater improvement over time that others.

So, what you do at 18 isn't indicative of what you do at 27. It can be, but not always.

Just some points to consider.


Also, just to be clear, his vo2 max could be 80 and he could still perform as he does, if he had great efficiency and lactate clearance. Vo2 max isn't a great indicator of much. I shouldn't use it. Sorry.

So, 6 w/kg is something to focus on more concretely. Its what is going into the road.

If vo2 was the best indicator, I should have been better than Lemond. And I wasn't. Ever. even doped.


But, honestly, I don't care. If you guys wanna think Froome dopes, go for it. have at it. I do not care..

Just trying to give you some alternative methods to think on it.

Good post, JV

 

[Nick777]

If vo2 was the best indicator, I should have been better than Lemond. And I wasn't. Ever. even doped.

Care to elaborate? What was your Vo2 max?

 

[blackcat]

not 2 lemond. b coz uv lemond.

but luv lemond, they dont grow IQs in pelotons. jonny vee far too smart to be a biker. better be a pr flak on K street. hope n change u can believe in. if you close your eyes really hard, and sing nananananananaaa

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Froome isn't there yet, Wiggo no where close. Froome, my guess will be sub 40 mins in the Tour, maybe even low 39... so, vo2max of 86-94 and 6.0 w/kg... more difficult to make a damning assessment there. Not saying it's clean or not clean, saying that I would not be willing to condemn it, without further proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xS-_8nmW_kg#t=687s

Lucho called, he said BS.

If vo2 was the best indicator, I should have been better than Lemond. And I wasn't. Ever. even doped.

Chuckle. You needed dope to pump your V02 max. And, even then you were only 15 seconds faster on Col d'Eze than LeMond.

But at least now we know 'the Aigle numbers' of the new LeMond/Hinault/Merckx/Coppi are just hearsay.

Tip for Vaughters, tell Rohan Dennis to lower his gear uphill, he will kill his knees big that big ring. Ask Stephen Roche.

 

[Ferminal]

Froome will not go sub-40 AdH. The race should be over by then.

 

[Netserk]

Froome will not go sub-40 AdH. The race should be over by then.

Contador will likely go sub-40 (IMO), so surely Froome will too?

 

[SeriousSam]

Sure, but Froome won't go all out on any climb. He will have a big advantage in the TTs and will hence be content to just be undroppable in the mountains. He might collect a few MTFs, going in the last 1km or so, if he feels like it.