JV talks, sort of

[Netserk]

What do you think (gutfeeling) is the primary task of Garmin's docs in case they spot irregularities in rider X's blood profile or power data?
would it be to tell rider X to stop doping or would it be to help rider X fly below the radar?

To inform JV about it.

And then for JV to talk with the rider about it and (depending on the dodgyness) not renew his contract.

Pure gutfeeling.

 

[the sceptic]

Why is it unlikely that JV is running a program? Better he ran the program with his docs and sports scientists to avoid positives.

Well first of all garmin kinda suck. they spend the majority of 2013 riding in the gruppetto. Yes, they do get a good result here and there, but imo if they are running a team program they must be doing something wrong.

And secondly, if JV is running a program after all his talk about how he wants a clean sport... Id rather have a little faith in humanity.

 

[Taxus4a]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 7h

Ryder had a choice; Rasmussen said he never saw Ryder dope.The easy road would have been to just go with that and lie.Not the choice he took



Good point. In 2003 we can find just a few riders among 1000 profesional that didnt dope. The question is what they did after, and how they act in differents situations. Ryder choice say more than other choices.

 

[Benotti69]

Well first of all garmin kinda suck. they spend the majority of 2013 riding in the gruppetto. Yes, they do get a good result here and there, but imo if they are running a team program they must be doing something wrong.

And secondly, if JV is running a program after all his talk about how he wants a clean sport... Id rather have a little faith in humanity.

I guess Garmin got targetted by McQuaid so they had to fly low under the radar, but a GT is a big win for any team.

We might see Garmin's performances pick up now Cookson is in charge and JV backed the winning horse.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I guess Garmin got targetted by McQuaid so they had to fly low under the radar, but a GT is a big win for any team.

We might see Garmin's performances pick up now Cookson is in charge and JV backed the winning horse.

I am open to correction - but I thought you believe that JV was running a dirty team, and that all the clean/cleanER™ talk was just PR and that the PR was just what the UCI wanted to get in new sponsors.

Also, if McQ was able to target Garmin, does that also mean that the tests are indeed capable of working?

 

[Benotti69]

I am open to correction - but I thought you believe that JV was running a dirty team, and that all the clean/cleanER™ talk was just PR and that the PR was just what the UCI wanted to get in new sponsors.

Yes. But i could be wrong. Hope you were sitting down when you read that.

Also, if McQ was able to target Garmin, does that also mean that the tests are indeed capable of working?

Nope, what i take it as, that JV kept the doping in the realm of winning it at CAS should McQuaid even consider it. But then we have Wigans and Hesjedals suspicous blood values in 3rd week of GTs and JV fobbed it off as machine error. So who knows.

 

[sniper]

Well first of all garmin kinda suck. they spend the majority of 2013 riding in the gruppetto. Yes, they do get a good result here and there, but imo if they are running a team program they must be doing something wrong.

there could be other reasons for the lousy 2013 season.
relationship between jv and pat was never ideal, but i think RR said it was particularly poor in 2013.
also recall rumors of GT winner with passport warning. might have been hesjedal.
all speculation of course.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes. But i could be wrong. Hope you were sitting down when you read that.



Nope, what i take it as, that JV kept the doping in the realm of winning it at CAS should McQuaid even consider it. But then we have Wigans and Hesjedals suspicous blood values in 3rd week of GTs and JV fobbed it off as machine error. So who knows.

Wouldn't that then mean they are indeed cleanER™

Actually, I think you are correct in that current doping is done to keep within a grey area where it makes taking a viable case unlikely - but I don't believe Garmin (or JV) have that expertise.

 

[Benotti69]

Wouldn't that then mean they are indeed cleanER™

Actually, I think you are correct in that current doping is done to keep within a grey area where it makes taking a viable case unlikely - but I don't believe Garmin (or JV) have that expertise.

For me there is either doping or clean, cleanER™ = doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

For me there is either doping or clean, cleanER™ = doping.

There will always be those who choose to dope. Always.

The situation in the 90s was that you could barely compete without doping let alone win. Things IMO are a lot cleanER™ so that people do not feel that it is the requirement to dope - that means that clean athletes can compete.
That in itself is progress - but things need to be a lot more robust and there needs to be a proactive approach so that anyone doping is far more likely to get caught quickly then get away with it.

 

[Benotti69]

There will always be those who choose to dope. Always.

The situation in the 90s was that you could barely compete without doping let alone win. Things IMO are a lot cleanER™ so that people do not feel that it is the requirement to dope - that means that clean athletes can compete.
That in itself is progress - but things need to be a lot more robust and there needs to be a proactive approach so that anyone doping is far more likely to get caught quickly then get away with it.

IMO.

In the past doping was seen as integral, acceptable and mostly ignored unless those in charge wanted rid of a rider. Cultural to the sport.

In the past GT riders came to the fore quickly in their tweens. That is not happening in the current peloton, exception this year being Quintana.

Would LeMond have won the TdF in 2013. Nope.

Till now, with the exception of too many deaths from epo and the 50% Hct introduced, it has been the same.

Will Cookson change this culture, time will tell.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

IMO.

In the past doping was seen as integral, acceptable and mostly ignored unless those in charge wanted rid of a rider. Cultural to the sport.

I appreciate your thoughts.
But the above contradicts your earlier post about McQ getting Garmin.

Unless of course..... something has changed over the last few years.

In the past GT riders came to the fore quickly in their tweens. That is not happening in the current peloton, exception this year being Quintana.

Would LeMond have won the TdF in 2013. Nope.

Till now, with the exception of too many deaths from epo and the 50% Hct introduced, it has been the same.

Will Cookson change this culture, time will tell.

See - this is where I don't agree.
You are looking at the likes of (I assume) Froome etc which is fine, but then using that to paint "the peloton".
There will always be outliners. Always guys willing to push the envelope.

As an aside - Ryders development actually looks similar to what I would expect - either out of the box good like Quintana, or a slow steady increase, like RH.
(Conversely neither scenario means that they are clean)

 

[Taxus4a]

IMO.

Would LeMond have won the TdF in 2013. Nope.

Why not?, I see him riding, he was a good cyclist, maybe not as good as Froome, but he would have been his chances nowadays. Today we have better cyclist, human genetics is improving, the population to chose cyclist is bigger, so the selected riders are better, and the train programs are more sofisticated, but Lemond would have his chances, of course.

But if you talk about people of the dark ERA riding with that performances nowadays, they would win today.

Even Frigo with a worse bike, and using an aerodinamical position and a technic in general laugeable compared with Wiggins, this his same time in similar weather and wind conditions in Eze. So in stages in wich aerodinamic is lees importand, nothing to do.

 

[thehog]

Why not?, I see him riding, he was a good cyclist, maybe not as good as Froome, but he would have been his chances nowadays. Today we have better cyclist, human genetics is improving, the population to chose cyclist is bigger, so the selected riders are better, and the train programs are more sofisticated, but Lemond would have his chances, of course.

But if you talk about people of the dark ERA riding with that performances nowadays, they would win today.

Even Frigo with a worse bike, and using an aerodinamical position and a technic in general laugeable compared with Wiggins, this his same time in similar weather and wind conditions in Eze. So in stages in wich aerodinamic is lees importand, nothing to do.

Was he cleans?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Things IMO are a lot cleanER™ so that people do not feel that it is the requirement to dope - that means that clean athletes can compete.

Are the clean athletes to whom you refer the ones who "never tested positive?" If not, who are they?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Are the clean athletes to whom you refer the ones who "never tested positive?" If not, who are they?

Clean is clean - i.e. they don't dope.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Clean is clean - i.e. they don't dope.

So then, no one on the Pro Tour teams.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Why not?, I see him riding, he was a good cyclist, maybe not as good as Froome, but he would have been his chances nowadays. Today we have better cyclist, human genetics is improving, the population to chose cyclist is bigger, so the selected riders are better, and the train programs are more sofisticated, but Lemond would have his chances, of course.

Not a biology major are you.
Never mind the rest of this meaningless post.

 

[42x16ss]

So then, no one on the Pro Tour teams.

I'd go with noone prominent on World Tour teams. I'd say there's a fair few pack fill domestiques that are clean though.

Don't forget that Bassons was able to get a TdF start in 98 and win a Dauphine stage in 99 at Festina riding totally clean, (or at the very least no EPO or similar) so surely carrying water bottles and positioning a team leader until the main mountains or 5km banner is more than possible clean these days.

Still dreaming if you think you can win anything big without some incredible luck though.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Not a biology major are you.
Never mind the rest of this meaningless post.

What part of 1 picopercent do you not understand?

</sarcasm>

 

[LaFlorecita]

Why not?, I see him riding, he was a good cyclist, maybe not as good as Froome, but he would have been his chances nowadays. Today we have better cyclist, human genetics is improving, the population to chose cyclist is bigger, so the selected riders are better, and the train programs are more sofisticated, but Lemond would have his chances, of course.

But if you talk about people of the dark ERA riding with that performances nowadays, they would win today.

Even Frigo with a worse bike, and using an aerodinamical position and a technic in general laugeable compared with Wiggins, this his same time in similar weather and wind conditions in Eze. So in stages in wich aerodinamic is lees importand, nothing to do.

Dear Taxus you are talking evolution here. Let me tell you this: human race cannot evolve over a period of just 20 years.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Dear Taxus you are talking evolution here. Let me tell you this: human race cannot evolve over a period of just 20 years.

It can devolve though.
His posts have made that abundantly clear

 

[del1962]

Why not?, I see him riding, he was a good cyclist, maybe not as good as Froome, but he would have been his chances nowadays. Today we have better cyclist, human genetics is improving, the population to chose cyclist is bigger, so the selected riders are better, and the train programs are more sofisticated, but Lemond would have his chances, of course.

But if you talk about people of the dark ERA riding with that performances nowadays, they would win today.

Even Frigo with a worse bike, and using an aerodinamical position and a technic in general laugeable compared with Wiggins, this his same time in similar weather and wind conditions in Eze. So in stages in wich aerodinamic is lees importand, nothing to do.

Some good points, some bad points

bad points

human genetics is improving - think this is bunkum

good points

larger base to improve from
improvements in training techniques

I would add better understanding of nutrition

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Speaking of devolving... given the body's tendency to seek equilibrium when injecting artificial bits and pieces - ie, your natural EPO goes down when you inject EPO - I wonder what impact this is having on people who do use extraneous means for performance enhancement, over a number of years, and if it does in fact devolve the human genome.

Waddaya reckon JV?

 

[sniper]

There will always be those who choose to dope. Always.

The situation in the 90s was that you could barely compete without doping let alone win. Things IMO are a lot cleanER™ so that people do not feel that it is the requirement to dope - that means that clean athletes can compete.
That in itself is progress - but things need to be a lot more robust and there needs to be a proactive approach so that anyone doping is far more likely to get caught quickly then get away with it.

if doping pays off financially, doping will be what the cool kids do.
hesjedal is a lot cooler than the clean guy who wrote that blog to vent his anger about how hesjedal c.s. cheated their way up to the top of canadian mtb-ing.
hesjedal got into the position he is in through doping.
i don't think hesjedal regrets having doped in 2003. I think he regrets it has come out. let's not be naive here.

jv telling us that doping aint what the cool kids do anymore, and that dopers are being ostracized. come on. ostracized by whom? by the clean guys? the clean guys are at home doing normal jobs, writing (angry) blogs, and posting on forums. doping pays off, and you seem to be grossly underestimating the preparedness of guys like hesjedal and other garmin riders to cheat, have some money to spend, and thus, indeed, be cool.