JV talks, sort of

[Ferminal]

In relation to your second paragraph, how do we know they are clean, maybe the levels of doping at Garmin are low so riders get less from it than previous doping and appear clean and guys like Hesjedal got more from less, but his numbers were off on his Giro win and JV put that down to machine error, like Wigans numbers from 2009 TdF, machine error.

That's kind of the point isn't it.

It's fine for Millar, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, Danielson and Hesjedal to perform as good/better than ever because dopers don't get any benefit today. But if Murilo Fischer does **** all it's because all his talent came from a syringe.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If JV is telling the truth about Hesjedal's confession being a long time ago, why did RH not have a 6 month (minimum) suspension?

This smells and not of roses.

Not sure where you got this.

JV says he was aware of RHs past as long ago as 2008 - but RH confession to the ADAs was not until earlier this year - SoL 8 years.

 

[Benotti69]

Basically you dismiss that there isn't a 'strong system' because of what you see - thats fine, but is just your opinion so we can agree to disagree.

And of course there will be some 'top riders' doping, (always will be) so if your view is that also means the donkeys must be too then I really dont see where you can ever get off this point.

I'll get off the point when i see the anti doping becoming independent and hear the doping culture has all but ended. I think the sport needs to become worse as people (enablers) leave due to the end of the doping culture and sponsors leave for a while why a new clean culture pervades. That is not going to happened when guys like Hincapie, VdV, DZ, RH etc get 6 months and get to keep their fortunes as they will be used as examples of why doping is worth the risk.

This is crazy - you would be the first to shout PR if JV or Garmin disclosed RH had talked.
Very simple - RHs doping has been exposed, if he had not been to the authorities or threw out a denial it would show that all was not well at Garmin.

If RH had talked when it is alleged, where is the suspension for doping? Of course it was about PR, JV was not going to announce that Garmin's GT winner was a doper (probably won it on dope imo) as that doesn' fit the clean message sell now does it.

Is RH of the abilities of a LeMond, i dont see it! So again the message from JV is clean teams can win as the doping is minimal, bollix! it aint minimal, Armstrong proved that in '09 -'11 (where Wigans got a 4th) and did it change in '12 nah why would it have?

 

[Benotti69]

Not sure where you got this.

JV says he was aware of RHs past as long ago as 2008 - but RH confession to the ADAs was not until earlier this year - SoL 8 years.

JV said he talk to ADAs a long time ago. Cant find quote at the moment.

But c'mon, no one believes he was not doping on Disco or Phonak. Jeez even the blind can see that!

 

[thehog]

I don't think you can run the ship in a way that looks after both the employees and the team. Maybe that was the case until 2007-2008 when it went from an operation trying to give untainted guys a good chance, to one which wanted to give old mates a contract. Sky's ZTP is to protect the team (and in that regard I tend to agree with its intentions, their problem was the timing) whereas the Slipstream one is to look after the employees.

The funny thing is, there are several riders who are not "known" dopers although you suspect that they did at some stage who have underperformed at Slipstream. They haven't fronted up to any ADA to sort out a deal, yet I have far more faith in them being the clean ones at the team rather than all those who have "admitted" to doping yet went on to perform as good or ridiculously better.

Correct. This has been linked before but it reeks of "managed confession/apology" that everyone was so crucial of Armstrong for.

It's like JV/Slipstream have become a professional consulting arm for managed confessions.

Almost like Fabani was meant to be for Armstrong.

Master of disaster.

It's all too slick for my liking and all used-car-salesmaney.

Here's your apology and we say no more, happy?

Like Vaughters NYTimes confession. He was around gushing to tell everyone he confessed. 13 years later. And wasn't it a lovely well written confession, not.

Here's an example: When the USADA Reasoned Decision came out last fall, including all the names of athletes who had given testimony, we received [along with many other media outlets] simultaneous e-mails from a law firm containing statements by George Hincapie and Michael Barry. Other than swapping out names, they were identical, and contained a short, succinct summary plus an apology. Neither athlete would do interviews. Ryder's admission followed an almost identical script. Neither athlete has provided further explanations of what led them to cheat and lie.

I requested an interview with Ryder, and I received (from the team's communications department) a stock reply that Ryder was doing no interviews because of the 'ongoing investigation into cycling'. Really? USADA didn't even include his name in the Reasoned Decision because they decided it had little to do with the Lance Armstrong investigation. This sounds more like a convenient excuse for not having to actually explain himself.

In some ways - and it pains me to say it - I have more respect for the likes of Tyler Hamilton and David Millar. They at least gave me an explanation of what led to their actions.

So, sorry Ryder, sorry Michael, I don't accept your apologies at this time. You need to earn my forgiveness.

http://www.canadiancyclist.com/dailynews.php?id=26750

 

[RichWalk]

I have tried to understand and at times defend the position but I tend to agree.

The more we learn the more we realise that it's all talk and not much substance. There is a disconnect between what we are told and reality, clearly some crafty words are said to project and maintain certain image. Again, I'm not saying it's a cover for known malicious activities, rather a barrier which is expected to deflect all negative scrutiny. However I think it's come to a point where the continual disregard of even the possibility that something dodgy may have occurred by anyone at anytime of the team's history is starting to blur the lines between the two, and it's somewhat understandable for people to feel that one may be complicit simply due to neglect.

The idea that one person can vouch for an entire team over it's entire history is ridiculous, even worse when it's supposed to be swallowed without question. This from a team with maybe more known dopers/facilitators employed than any other. If this team wants to be on a pedestal where is the openness, where is the accountability? Credit to the man for trying to create an environment without pressure, but the PR game is over, it's going to take serious action if the words are to regain any believability they may have had.

I wonder if any "journalists" out there will try and work this angle, or continue to give this team an undeserved free pass.

Nicely put together, I've always been suspicious JV's Garmin was little more than a PR master stroke, he of all people must of known the 'risk' involved with such a stratergy, but again my personal view is these types who lead cycling are little more than opportunist politicians; their rhetoric is based on maximising their current situation within the sport.

Trouble is now, with such immediate and referencable digital media, the sport can be scrutinised with ease, hence the steady procession of team directors fighting a rear guard action against yet another member of the staff, who some how forgot to mention his past.

I'd like to believe things are improving but at the highest level I see nothing that gives me renewed confidence in the sport, Cookson et al have a very long way to go yet!

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't think you can run the ship in a way that looks after both the employees and the team. Maybe that was the case until 2007-2008 when it went from an operation trying to give untainted guys a good chance, to one which wanted to give old mates a contract. Sky's ZTP is to protect the team (and in that regard I tend to agree with its intentions, their problem was the timing) whereas the Slipstream one is to look after the employees.

The funny thing is, there are several riders who are not "known" dopers although you suspect that they did at some stage who have underperformed at Slipstream. They haven't fronted up to any ADA to sort out a deal, yet I have far more faith in them being the clean ones at the team rather than all those who have "admitted" to doping yet went on to perform as good or ridiculously better.

What sticks in the craw with Garmin's policy is that known and now unknown cheats continue to get paid and race and enjoy success without ever really atoning for the sins of the past. Ryder's admission neatly puts him outside the SoL which means the results throughout his career are untouchable. I've been reading a lot of bitterness towards him and his compatriots from the MTB world, how dominant they were at the time and how they denied clean riders opportunities. That success in MTB is pivotal to Ryder's career from then on, creating a platform from which he could secure contracts with good teams and get the opportunities to lead teams which he simply didn't deserve.

Whenever Ryder stopped doping his career is based on lies. And is continued to be based on lies and funded by Garmin and excused by Vaughters.

For me that is a difficult pill to swallow. Vaughters' dismissive manner at my question seems to say that he can condescend his way out of this to the internet investigators but it doesn't wash. When a rider of Ryder's standing with his Palmares admits to doping the entire results of his career must be brought into question, to say it doesn't apply, to spin the tired 'he only doped once and then saw the error of his ways' is insulting. Vaughters knows the game, he should know this cannot be swept under the carpet, and it is very damaging to his and Garmin's image.

 

[Beech Mtn]

In relation to your second paragraph, how do we know they are clean, maybe the levels of doping at Garmin are low so riders get less from it than previous doping and appear clean and guys like Hesjedal got more from less, but his numbers were off on his Giro win and JV put that down to machine error, like Wigans numbers from 2009 TdF, machine error.

Machine error is an old standby for JV:

Still, it was Vaughters himself who received a fright at the pre-Tour medical tests, as his hematocrit posted a 51 percent reading, above the UCI's limit of 50 percent, but still under his special dispensation of 52 percent. (Frequent testing had shown that Vaughters - like many good climbers - have naturally high hematocrit levels and they are granted dispensation from doctors.)

"I'd never tested (at a race) above 50 percent, except before the start of the '99 Tour," he said. "I told the team doctor 'don't worry, I've got a certificate, I've got a hall-pass for this'," he recalled. "But the doctor said it wasn't me they were worried about, it was that the whole team was very close (to the 50 percent limit)."

But that year, it is now widely accepted even by the UCI, according to Vaughters, that its testing apparatus was calibrated somewhat high. He said this is not that uncommon, given that the machines are carried from race-to-race, through baggage handling and screening, and while efforts are made to ensure they are accurately calibrated, "there is some slop room" for variations.

Source

and this little gem:

But as far as Vaughters could see in the USPS team, "there was no first-hand evidence of anything (doping-related). I didn't see any evidence of EPO or anything like that. But that said, I wasn't there for the second and third weeks of the Tour," he said. (US Postal lost Jonathan Vaughters after he was caught up in the second fall over the Gois on stage 2. He was part of Armstrong's plan for the mountains.)

"I've kept in touch with (former USPS team-mates) Kevin (Livingston) and Frankie (Andreu) and it's never really come up," he said of any post-Tour doping revelations.

Re the AFLD's finding of EPO in samples from Lance and others in the 2005 TdF:

But there is the identity of the riders whose urine samples are also said to show EPO. "I'm not worried," he said, "I was never urine-tested in that Tour," he said. But Vaughters said that if the newspaper can claim they have the information to identify Armstrong, then what of other riders? "It's not really fair," he said, "and it seems like there's a bit of malice" in the selective reporting. "These other guys are getting off scot-free."

Basically that whole article is worth reading again.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

While I agree that Hesjedal having doped is "old news" (sorta; obviously it wasn't confirmed, but the savvy folk was 95% sure, and JV knew that) and that as such it doesn't have an impact on the believability of his Giro win, the perceived lack of honesty in dealing with the confession does have an effect on how his subsequent career is seen. The confession is a bit of a screw-up because it won't satisfy anyone: the naive think Hesjedal has NOW become tainted, while the savvy are 95% sure Hesjedal is only giving us a low-fat confession and is still lying. Most of the latter group have no problem with past dopers per se, but have a low tolerance for liars and bullshiɨters.

Great post.
And you have nailed it with the last line.

When Ras outed RH its time to grab some popcorn and await the response. They should be informed of their MIRANDA rights, especially that everything will be deconstructed instantly and used on twitter, forums, blogs against you.

 

[Beech Mtn]

JV said he talk to ADAs a long time ago. Cant find quote at the moment.

But c'mon, no one believes he was not doping on Disco or Phonak. Jeez even the blind can see that!

The JV quote is from his tweet here

Waiting on a few more sign offs on statement,but needless to say @ryder_hesjedal was 100% truthful,under oath,w CCES+USADA a v long time ago

 

[Dr. Maserati]

JV said he talk to ADAs a long time ago. Cant find quote at the moment.

But c'mon, no one believes he was not doping on Disco or Phonak. Jeez even the blind can see that!

Then you would want to find the quote - otherwise you are mistaken.

I do find it a stretch that he did not dope during his road career. But again, I am not interested in hyperbole - lets see what actually does come out.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Clean is clean - i.e. they don't dope.

So, who are these clean riders who don't dope?

 

[Ferminal]

Basically that whole article is worth reading again.

Worth repeating:

..information to identify Armstrong, then what of other riders? "It's not really fair," he said, "and it seems like there's a bit of malice" in the selective reporting. "These other guys are getting off scot-free."

Just not fair.

 

[Benotti69]

Great post.
And you have nailed it with the last line.

When Ras outed RH its time to grab some popcorn and await the response. They should be informed of their MIRANDA rights, especially that everything will be deconstructed instantly and used on twitter, forums, blogs against you.

Which shows how un-savy JV is when it comes to management. Everyones doping is going to come out at some stage. He knows that. Now look at Hesjedal, no matter what way they try and spin it no one is going to believe he didn't dope at Disco or Phonak and therefore did he ever stop, he won a GT and never looked like he was going to do that, never mind Il Giro.

 

[Benotti69]

Then you would want to find the quote - otherwise you are mistaken.

I do find it a stretch that he did not dope during his road career. But again, I am not interested in hyperbole - lets see what actually does come out.

It aint hyperbole to look at a doper and check the teams he rode for and come to the conclusion he doped on them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So, who are these clean riders who don't dope?

Moose - I don't know, I have no idea.

 

[python]

I have tried to understand and at times defend the position but I tend to agree.

The more we learn the more we realise that it's all talk and not much substance. There is a disconnect between what we are told and reality, clearly some crafty words are said to project and maintain certain image. Again, I'm not saying it's a cover for known malicious activities, rather a barrier which is expected to deflect all negative scrutiny. However I think it's come to a point where the continual disregard of even the possibility that something dodgy may have occurred by anyone at anytime of the team's history is starting to blur the lines between the two, and it's somewhat understandable for people to feel that one may be complicit simply due to neglect.

The idea that one person can vouch for an entire team over it's entire history is ridiculous, even worse when it's supposed to be swallowed without question. This from a team with maybe more known dopers/facilitators employed than any other. If this team wants to be on a pedestal where is the openness, where is the accountability? Credit to the man for trying to create an environment without pressure, but the PR game is over, it's going to take serious action if the words are to regain any believability they may have had.

I wonder if any "journalists" out there will try and work this angle, or continue to give this team an undeserved free pass.

quoted the entire post for quality.

it is somewhat unusual for you to write such a long post - clearly it took some time and thinking about the garmin/jv/rh sitation...to the bolded, a serious question, how would you advice jv to react or behave to meet your standard of openness and accountability given the reality the sport's politics, the sport's corrupt leadership at the time (mcq and co) and the desire to run a team or go bust ?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which shows how un-savy JV is when it comes to management. Everyones doping is going to come out at some stage. He knows that. Now look at Hesjedal, no matter what way they try and spin it no one is going to believe he didn't dope at Disco or Phonak and therefore did he ever stop, he won a GT and never looked like he was going to do that, never mind Il Giro.

Hold on - you have often accused JV of running a doped up team, now you are saying it is bad management to try and hide RHs doping from before Garmin, even though "everyones doping will come out".?
What gives?

It aint hyperbole to look at a doper and check the teams he rode for and come to the conclusion he doped on them.

It is when you just look at the 'teams' he rode for - (every rider would be a doper under that guise, oh wait.... ) - read the USADA affidavits, Tylers book, Scott Mercier etc - the standard was not to be doped in their first years.

 

[MartinGT]

I am sick of reading and hearing this bull man!

How many more years do we put up with this?

"Deb,sport had a very different landscape+ethos 10 yrs ago. In his time with us he's been clean. Bet my life on it"

 

[Benotti69]

The JV quote is from his tweet here

Waiting on a few more sign offs on statement,but needless to say @ryder_hesjedal was 100% truthful,under oath,w CCES+USADA a v long time ago

Thanks Beech Mtn.

Then you would want to find the quote - otherwise you are mistaken.

I do find it a stretch that he did not dope during his road career. But again, I am not interested in hyperbole - lets see what actually does come out.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Moose - I don't know, I have no idea.

Me neither. From the article, I suspect Francois Parisien might be a clean one though.

 

[Benotti69]

Hold on - you have often accused JV of running a doped up team, now you are saying it is bad management to try and hide RHs doping from before Garmin, even though "everyones doping will come out".?
What gives?

Doc, you get pedantic on anything you want. But where does bad management not enter the realm of doping? Everything does always come out, history has shown that.

It is when you just look at the 'teams' he rode for - (every rider would be a doper under that guise, oh wait.... ) - read the USADA affidavits, Tylers book, Scott Mercier etc - the standard was not to be doped in their first years.

Mercier left the sport. Hesjedal didn't.

 

[thehog]

Machine error is an old standby for JV:


Source

and this little gem:


Re the AFLD's finding of EPO in samples from Lance and others in the 2005 TdF:


Basically that whole article is worth reading again.

Yep I love all that.

He's been riding the waves through his entire career.

Kudos to him. He knows when to back the winner.

When he knew Lance was going down he jumped ship wry quickly to the new winning team of "fashionable confessions".

Why people disgust his snake oil is beyond me.

With his MBA he'll only be more dangerous. Quick get him a gig in the banking industry!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Garmin's a developmental squad for the true big-time dope teams. You go to Garmin, make a little less, but develop your "clean-cred" while you supercharge. Then you can go to the big players like BMC, Sky, Katusha, Movistar, Astana with a squeaky-clean passport and the Jonathan Vaughters seal of approval. Bingo. Big money.

That's my impression of Garmin.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks Beech Mtn.

I assumed the "very long time ago" would be a specific or even vague date, not a direct "v long time ago" quote - I haven't had a beer in a v long time (almost a week).

Doc, you get pedantic on anything you want. But where does bad management not enter the realm of doping? Everything does always come out, history has shown that.



Mercier left the sport. Hesjedal didn't.

Again - you use the history defence saying "everything always comes out" (which I would not be sure of) - and then ignore the actual history of what does come out to make broad assumptions.