JV talks, sort of

[Dazed and Confused]

I was not initially an JV supporter. Over time, I began to believe that JV was honest about trying to have a clean team and that he genuinely wanted to promote things that would help riders compete clean.

I still stand behind that belief. I just don't think JV is saying in public that he does everything within his team to provide them jobs without having to dope, and that he has a genuine anti-doping stance, but behind the scenes, he is encouraging or in any way facilitating the doping of his riders.

Does RH's situation look good for him? No. Has he sometimes spoken out of both sides of his mouth? Yes. But I just don't believe his goal is to do anything but have a clean WT cycling team that makes money. Those two goals have been incompatible in years past, but I don't see him as trying to keep that dynamic in place. I just don't.

As for Ryder, he sounds like a Class A d0uche...in fact, JV can be d0uchey sometimes, but I think that his motivations to have a clean sport are genuine.

yes agree, JV's intentions are perhaps good. However playing both sides of the fence in a transition phase is risky business.

On the dirty team barometer he moves a few places up. Still below the real culprits however.

 

[biokemguy]

Actually, I think you are correct in that current doping is done to keep within a grey area where it makes taking a viable case unlikely - but I don't believe Garmin (or JV) have that expertise.

Really? What other team has as many known dopers who haven't tested positive?

Seems they're rich with expertise to me.

 

[WinterRider]

But see this would be PR - nothing more.
And that is what JV gets (sometimes fairly) accused of.

Again - it is not JV or Garmins job or role to get rid of doping.
The 'transparency' issue is just PR - if you are anti-doping and want to assist in anti-doping making bland confessions on SoL day is pointless.

The "My name is Ryder and I am a doper, I am sortof sorry" is of no benefit to dismantling the doping system and network - the only way and place to do that is the ADAs, and that is not something that the public needs to instantly aware of.

Sure its PR. But its more in line with what JV has been trying to sell us.

If his athletes truly want to ride dope free (and if they don't, then why are they joining his dope free team), then they should welcome any opportunity to help clean up the sport.

IMO, having more transparency at Garmin would help the image of that team, and this would in turn help foster the image they are trying to present that cycling is cleaning up.

It's fine that JV has his policy that riders must cooperate with ADA's when contacted, but I'd like to see more openness with the public. Without that, it's hard to trust what he says, and I think overall it is hurting the image of his team.

In Ryder's case specifically, it would have been better to get the confession from Ryder in the first place. The way it has come about it reeks of Garmin trying to hide things, which makes me wonder what else they're hiding.

 

[Benotti69]

The fact of the matter is RH did get away with it.
No sanction, no loss of earnings.

Your final paragraph is interesting.
Why is it "unacceptable"? It is hardly a surprise that RH previously doped - and there was not this demand of a confession from others like CVV, DZ etc before they were exposed.

All the guys on Garmin got away with it. 6 months off over winter, no financial penalty and no repayment of ill gotten gains from cheating!

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

So ask yourself if you'd advise your favorite doper...sorry, rider to just come out and confess and take the punishment. Would you do it if you were in his shoes?

I have no favs so anyone i caught doping would be shopped pronto!

 

[the sceptic]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters

Clarification: if one if my guys is found to have lied to authorities, timeline or otherwise: fired. Nasty truth, I'll stand by. Not lying.

Oh look JV is really serious now.

I guess not coming clean until it is obvious the truth is about to come out doesnt count as lying. JV should know.

 

[thehog]

Oh look JV is really serious now.

I guess not coming clean until it is obvious the truth is about to come out doesnt count as lying. JV should know.

He is!

Will he fire himself?

Yesterday he put his life on it. Think maybe JV got a text from someone clarifying the press releases.

 

[sniper]

Oh look JV is really serious now.

I guess not coming clean until it is obvious the truth is about to come out doesnt count as lying. JV should know.

yesterday he said something like "needless to say, Ryder has been 100% truthful"

anyway, shows he is reading the online newspapers and forums. and he probably also got some incredulous tweets.
nobody's really buying this.

 

[sniper]

Its reassuring to see kimmage retweet unapologetic views on the hesjedal case.
No bandwagon stuff from him.

 

[the sceptic]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...rtied-vaughters-wouldnt-change-a-thing_306775

Hey JV I hear Horner hasnt signed a contract yet.

Imagine how many martyr points you could get if he gets busted while on your team. Just a thought..

 

[JRTinMA]

Not sure where you got this.

JV says he was aware of RHs past as long ago as 2008 - but RH confession to the ADAs was not until earlier this year - SoL 8 years.

JV declared in his affidavit that he was completely honest about all other rider he knew who had doped. Doesn't this suggest he lied to USADA?

 

[JRTinMA]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
"We cannot solve our problems using the same thinking we used when we created them" - Einstein.

That settles that people, nothing to see here.

 

[pastronef]

vaughters vs velocast

http://twitpic.com/djmayp


see the video linked by Inrng

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/396382631140392960

 

[blackcat]

yesterday he said something like "needless to say, Ryder has been 100% truthful"

anyway, shows he is reading the online newspapers and forums. and he probably also got some incredulous tweets.
nobody's really buying this.

is it not needle less to say on Garmin?

 

[thehog]

That settles that people, nothing to see here.

His turning more and more into Jeff Skilling everyday.

This company is solid. I bet my life on it. The stock is strong. Keep investing peoples.

Hope no one minds me saying. But JV has tuned into a ****er. And thats an British term for those who don't know when to step back and think for a little.

 

[blackcat]

I was not initially an JV supporter. Over time, I began to believe that JV was honest about trying to have a clean team and that he genuinely wanted to promote things that would help riders compete clean.

I still stand behind that belief. I just don't think JV is saying in public that he does everything within his team to provide them jobs without having to dope, and that he has a genuine anti-doping stance, but behind the scenes, he is encouraging or in any way facilitating the doping of his riders.

i dont think any on this board, and in this thread, think JV is running a doping program. This would be/is facile. it is a false dichotomy, it is not Fuentes/Ferrari systematic plan, v no needles and just gluten free. not the either-or dilemma innit

But, i think he does have an experts eye, and knows what is possible, and give riders a wide berth, and would be willing to look left, as long as the blood numbers look ok and are passable. if it is egregious, no.

Does RH's situation look good for him? No. Has he sometimes spoken out of both sides of his mouth? Yes. But I just don't believe his goal is to do anything but have a clean WT cycling team that makes money. Those two goals have been incompatible in years past, but I don't see him as trying to keep that dynamic in place. I just don't.

As for Ryder, he sounds like a Class A d0uche...in fact, JV can be d0uchey sometimes, but I think that his motivations to have a clean sport are genuine.

I dont think you can have a clean sport. The continentals know this. The puritans in the anglophone world dont. The professional athletes know the realist perspective.

 

[timmers]

still don't get why USADA vouched for the truthfulness of Ryder's testimony.

do JV and USADA have some sort of agreement that we don't know of?
a Limited Hangout agreement?

Hesjedal has a Canadian licence so he is covered by CCES who stated that he shared with them and USADA, "the information that was disclosed regarding his previous doping involvement".

What this means and what questions they asked him we don't know. I would have thought that CCES would be reviewing his BP passport and all his other test results over the years to see if this "only in 2003" stands scrutiny.

USADA would be interested in any involvement by USCycling registered licence holders so US Postal and Garmin.

 

[thehog]

His turning more and more into Jeff Skilling everyday.

This company is solid. I bet my life on it. The stock is strong. Keep investing peoples.

Hope no one minds me saying. But JV has tuned into a ****er. And thats an British term for those who don't know when to step back and think for a little.

Point in case.

Now he seeks revenge.

Nutter.

 

[MarkvW]

I'm not getting the hate on Vaughters at this time. Vaughters has always made it clear that Garmin is a happy home for ex-dopers, so long as they dope no more and tell the truth.

I don't see that anything has changed.

Am I missing new facts?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Point in case.

Now he seeks revenge.

Nutter.

Ha. The same Weltz pushed out of CSC, who expressed reservations about the team when the TH stuff broke, all squeaky clean and sanctimonious, and then it turned out he was the sleazy mule in the 'informed decision'…

We believe in your trust JV…

 

[Ferminal]

The same Johnny Weltz who went bat**** a year ago?

 

[thehog]

The same Johnny Weltz who went bat**** a year ago?

Yes the same Weltz defending Lance and calling Landis and Hamilton "jealous".

Nice card to play there JV

I think he may have gone full ***.

 

[the sceptic]

Yes the same Weltz defending Lance and calling Landis and Hamilton "jealous".

Nice card to play there JV

I think he may have gone full ***.

Nice trolling JV. We know getting things out in the open is your utmost priority

 

[ChewbaccaD]

i dont think any on this board, and in this thread, think JV is running a doping program. This would be/is facile. it is a false dichtomy, it is not Fuentes/Ferrari systematic plan, v no needles and just gluten free. not the either-or dilemma innit

But, i think he does have an experts eye, and knows what is possible, and give riders a wide berth, and would be willing to look left, as long as the blood numbers look ok and are passable. if it is egregious, no.

I dont think you can have a clean sport. The continentals know this. The puritans in the anglophone world dont. The professional athletes know the realist perspective.

Maybe so. I've always respected your opinion.

 

[Ferminal]

quoted the entire post for quality.

it is somewhat unusual for you to write such a long post - clearly it took some time and thinking about the garmin/jv/rh sitation...to the bolded, a serious question, how would you advice jv to react or behave to meet your standard of openness and accountability given the reality the sport's politics, the sport's corrupt leadership at the time (mcq and co) and the desire to run a team or go bust ?

It's hard isn't it. I guess true accountability doesn't really exist in this world so it's unfair to set the bar so high. You only have to look at GreenEdge, whose "independent review" was a complete farce and took about six weeks for the whole thing to blow up in their face.

And let's make it clear: We shouldn't see Slipstream any differently as we do Trek, Lampre, Saxo and so on. We shouldn't demand any more of them than we do any other team, but that is precisely the problem. We are told time and time again how they are not like any of the other teams, only a few hours ago Vaughters pulled a quote out saying just that. But what evidence is there of them doing anything different, and how does that change the way we see the team?

They are different because the team principal doesn't want his riders to dope? Really? Haven't we been told how Roger Legeay was doing this over a decade ago? Didn't Eric Boyer take over at Cofidis to do the same thing? Bob Stapleton also wanted a clean team, doesn't mean he got it. I guess what I'm saying is that we need to see information, or actions which support the apparent distinction between riders on this team and riders on any other. At the moment it seems to be "they are different because they are different, your loss if you don't believe me".

It's the same for the riders too, they shouldn't be held to account any more than Alberto Contador or Philippe Gilbert. I think TFF touched on this point earlier, but it's perfectly rational behaviour for them to deny deny deny until the point where it is no longer sustainable and their best interest lies in a managed "admission". It's normal for them to pursue this course, I'm not criticising them on that level, I just thought Slipstream riders were different. Admitting when it's in your best interests isn't anything new either, remember the stunt Zabel pulled six years ago? It wasn't Slipstream riders who invented the "yeh we doped, a little, a long time ago, and are very sorry, by the way it's not like that now". All of this is simply Nu-Omerta, Ryder Hesjedal is indistinguishable from Stuart O'Grady.

So what it boils down to, is that if the team wants to be seen differently, it needs to act differently. The idea that one man is slowly winning the war and making clean athletes shine is getting a bit old. Don't just tell us you're different, show us you're different. A pretty simple place to start would be to release all blood control and performance data for the publicly known dopers on the team. Vaughters knows based on this data they are 100% clean (at least I hope he's not relying on the eye test), share the enlightenment, what is there to lose? (As a footnote to this point, I sort of touched on it in the other thread, but if Hesjedal's Giro 2012 was indistinguishable from the rest of his career I would have some serious thinking to do and pretty much have to reconsider everything I thought I knew about the sport).