JV talks, sort of

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(As a footnote to this point, I sort of touched on it in the other thread, but if Hesjedal's Giro 2012 was indistinguishable from the rest of his career I would have some serious thinking to do and pretty much have to reconsider everything I thought I knew about the sport).
Yup................
 
Mar 13, 2009
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MarkvW said:
I'm not getting the hate on Vaughters at this time. Vaughters has always made it clear that Garmin is a happy home for ex-dopers, so long as they dope no more and tell the truth.

I don't see that anything has changed.

Am I missing new facts?
i)misinterpreting it as hate
ii)this "revelation" is more evidence to confirmation the belief, Ryder did not win the Giro on bread and water
iii)we cant believe jv, the rhetoric does not match the actions

disbelief =/= hate. Just because more inclined to think JV is lying, is not hate
 
Jan 20, 2013
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Two camps:

first is Sky pro cycling team.....no tolerance policy to doping and past doping discrepancies with an accompanying lack of transparency. Could indicate a more' team' approach to doping?

Second is Garmin pro cycling team....public “clean image”, a compromise containing reformed dopers, and a willingness to talk to journalists like Kimmage = more transparency. Could indicate a more 'individual' approach to doping?

The first, Sky arguably deeply dishonest, punitive and Armstrongesque.

The second, Garmin a realistic compromise within the scope of the 'sacred cow' or hypocrisy of public image on doping in professional sport.

Takes you pick, and makes your choice. :confused:
 
I think the Garmin approach only works with racers who are admitted (Millar/JV) and/or vocal (?) about doping not for cowards like RH who are just sitting tight cashing in until SOL expires.

Sky...well I guess the rationale is that if you've never cheated before, especially when you could get away with it/had to do it then why would you now?
 
webvan said:
I think the Garmin approach only works with racers who are admitted (Millar/JV) and/or vocal (?) about doping not for cowards like RH who are just sitting tight cashing in until SOL expires.

Sky...well I guess the rationale is that if you've never cheated before, especially when you could get away with it/had to do it then why would you now?
I would love to know Danny Pate's thoughts on it all
 
May 26, 2010
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webvan said:
I think the Garmin approach only works with racers who are admitted (Millar/JV) and/or vocal (?) about doping not for cowards like RH who are just sitting tight cashing in until SOL expires.

Sky...well I guess the rationale is that if you've never cheated before, especially when you could get away with it/had to do it then why would you now?
JV took a long time to go against Amrstrong publicly. In 2005 JV was singing the praises of Armstrong. Millar criticised Landis, but never criticised Contador. Garmin are select in the who they are vocal about.

We are going to learn that Weltz was a dope courier.

Garmin have a hell of lot of doping experience on their team.
 
Wow, catching up on the last couple of days of this thread, and I've gotta say, I'm pleasantly surprised to see the consensus that's formed here. A lot of smart posts (from Ferminal, Hitch, Mas, TFF, blackcat, Hog, etc), and everyone's so downright... reasonable. Not really often in the clinic to you get a reasonable and broad consensus, from those I already named to Python and JimmyFingers and Bennotti and sniper and D-Qued. (maybe I missed 2 pages of deleted insults, but I'm inclined to think not in this case).

Gotta say I agree. I've been convinced that Vaughters is trying to run a program that can win 'clean' (whether that's 'pure' clean or blackcat's more cynical 'clean' is something I'm not qualified to determine, but whatever, same point to me), and I've understood the position he and his riders must be in, in terms of making hard choices that affect them and their friends and former colleagues. So I've been understanding of the careful way in which admissions have been handled. I feel like generally, riders at Garmin have toed a respectable line - it kind of sticks in my craw that many confessors got off with a 6-month vacation when they benefitted for much of their careers from dope, but to me that's acceptable moral collateral damage in the scheme of things.

This Hesjedal thing is different. For VdV, Zabriskie, Danielson, we had the published affidavits outlining when they started, how they got introduced to dope, and when they (say that they) stopped. Whether to believe them on the last point is fine for debate, but we don't get that with Ryder, we just get a deflecting 'I did it awhile ago, oops sorry'. I'm sure that story is out there, and since USADA or the Canadian equivalent didn't feel it necessary to make that public, we as fans naturally have questions.

I think it's fine to have a policy that you should be honest with any ADA that contacts you, but left it unsaid that you don't have to go to them right away. I think it's fine to talk to that ADA and not tell the public for another year until it inevitably comes out (although I think it would have been smarter to come out with it at the same time as everyone else last year, because this is just another fiasco). I think it's fine to craft a confession that's tailored to the broader public, with the manipulative PR points focusing on how it was a long time ago and how it was part of cycling's 'dark path', etc. I understand all those things. But something doesn't add up in the timeline. The teams he rode for before Garmin, the general feeling that there people 'knew' he was charging in that time period, those things need to be addressed. They seem conveniently omitted to avoid a penalty under the SOL.

Real cycling fans are going to be skeptical of that until those dots are connected. If Ryder is telling the truth, then he has nothing to lose by telling the truth about how he came to the decision to stop doping, how he resisted doing so even when it was rife at USPS and Phonak, how he navigated without dope through a pro peloton that hadn't yet called it's 'truce'. Some people wouldn't believe him, but that truth would be at least out there to judge. Right now, not only does no one who knows anything about pro cycling take his extremely limited confession at face value, but the way this is being approached seems remarkably similar in lack of detail and an air of 'hoping that it just goes away' to many laughable doping confessions of the past, from Basso to Zabel to Di Luca. That, I think, is ultimately going to be the most damaging to Garmin and Vaughters' credibility. JV is a smart guy, he worked pretty hard (in various spurts) to gain credibility layer by layer in the cynical clinic, and pretty much everywhere else in pro cycling. He's gotta know that this isn't enough, that him saying he '100%' believes in Hesjedal is just fine, as long as it's followed up by something substantial to let fans know why he believes him. Credibility is enough to make me withhold judgement until I can listen to an explanation, but not enough to make me buy something that seems fishy wholesale.

We're ready to listen, Vaughters. We're ready to listen, Ryder.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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Ferminal said:
It's hard isn't it. I guess true accountability doesn't really exist in this world <snipped for brevity>
Thanks, ferminal ! indeed.

what you and many other reasonable posters described is, simply put, is a rotten, distorted, grotesque world of professional cycling at elite level…any one who lived and survived in such an environment long enough, not to mention those growing and maturing in it, have to breath its stinking air, play by its mafia rules, swallow its poisonous dishes. .. So much so, that the faux reality permeates every molecule of their being, twists and splits their tongues, damages - often irreversibly like in the king fraud from texas case - their conscience and world perception.
^
THAT or the system eats you alive and spits out as dead meat.

in this particular case folks like jv and rh avoided the dead meat fate but their consciousness, regardless of whether they are aware of it, DID NOT. For me- end of story and wasting my limited energy even considering your fair footnote.

sorry for being so cynical, but everything else (without trying to minimize yours and others well-meant disgust and disappointment), is - frankly - storm in a tea cup.
 
Excellently put, skidmark.

That a rider who doped successfully as an MTB rider, by all accounts being quite brazen about it, would stop after focusing on the road and joining some of the dirtiest teams of the 00s is such an extraordinary story and it doesn't seem to make sense because there's apparently no internal or external pressure for him to stop. The why is a crucial aspect of Hesjedal's doping history that hasn't been addressed at all, and without that question being answered satisfactorily it is simply impossible to believe him.
 
hrotha said:
Excellently put, skidmark.

That a rider who doped successfully as an MTB rider, by all accounts being quite brazen about it, would stop after focusing on the road and joining some of the dirtiest teams of the 00s is such an extraordinary story and it doesn't seem to make sense because there's apparently no internal or external pressure for him to stop. The why is a crucial aspect of Hesjedal's doping history that hasn't been addressed at all, and without that question being answered satisfactorily it is simply impossible to believe him.
Indeed it was a good post.

I would add that Hesjedal has said nothing. One team press statement and JV doing all the talking & defending on Twitter and VeloNews.

Nothing from Hesjedal.

It speaks volumes.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Not sure where you got this.

JV says he was aware of RHs past as long ago as 2008 - but RH confession to the ADAs was not until earlier this year - SoL 8 years.
Is there any moral or ethical implication to the fact that JV, in his role of running a "clean and transparent" anti-doping program, knew of RH's doping well within the SOL and stayed silent?

Just poking the bear...
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Now this is interesting! Rasmussen is apparently saying that Weltz distributed EPO from Spain via Luxembourg. So Vaughters isn't just hiring ex dopers, he's also hiring dope distributors to be a part of his team?

Now that's interesting!
 
Apr 20, 2012
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JV has left this building a long time ago. Because of idiots calling Hesjedal a doper and stuff. Why not rename this the 'JV's Garmin is dope' topic?

Ferminal and skidmark's posts are indeed excellent.

There are so many holes in Garmin's PR BS it is almost as funny as team slick. Rasmussen has been very soft on Hesjedal or he has assasinated Garmin/Hesjedal. No way in hell Hesjedal et all just doped for that World Cup in 2003. Pure comedy. Good thing Bruyneel knows absolutely nothing about Ryder.

Greek tragedy.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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MarkvW said:
Now this is interesting! Rasmussen is apparently saying that Weltz distributed EPO from Spain via Luxembourg. So Vaughters isn't just hiring ex dopers, he's also hiring dope distributors to be a part of his team?

Now that's interesting!
Where do you get that from? interesting indeed.

No doubt he is very sorry about it though and that it happened more than 10 years ago.

Maybe its time for JV to step down from his high horse, and realize that hiring a bunch of cheaters from the "dark years of the sport" isnt the best way to run a clean team?
 
Aug 10, 2010
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the sceptic said:
Where do you get that from? interesting indeed.

No doubt he is very sorry about it though and that it happened more than 10 years ago.

Maybe its time for JV to step down from his high horse, and realize that hiring a bunch of cheaters from the "dark years of the sport" isnt the best way to run a clean team?
@veloropa retweeted by Laura Wieslo.
 
May 26, 2010
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the sceptic said:
Where do you get that from? interesting indeed.

No doubt he is very sorry about it though and that it happened more than 10 years ago.

Maybe its time for JV to step down from his high horse, and realize that hiring a bunch of cheaters from the "dark years of the sport" isnt the best way to run a clean team?
Mike Kaltoft Jensen ‏@MikeKaltoft 2h
Michael Rasmussen claims that it was current Garmin DS Johnny Weltz that provided EPO to CSC riders in 2002 (via @veloropa)

Rasmussen: Many CSC riders forgot to pay for their EPO which annoyed Johnny (Weltz). It was him who had procured it in Spain (via @veloropa)

Live by twitter die by twitter :rolleyes:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
JV has left this building a long time ago. Because of idiots calling Hesjedal a doper and stuff.
I also seem to recall some clueless fools questioning the work ethics of weltz.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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@skidmark - yip, the last few days on this thread have been. Excellent, with many great arguements and contributions, and your post adds to it, great stuff.

JMBeaushrimp said:
Is there any moral or ethical implication to the fact that JV, in his role of running a "clean and transparent" anti-doping program, knew of RH's doping well within the SOL and stayed silent?

Just poking the bear...
For me - no, I don't think so. Remember JV himself doped, he can hardly hop on the high horse after. He did put it in place that if contacted any of his riders would be expected to co-operate and be able to retain their jobs if they were suspended.

the sceptic said:
Where do you get that from? interesting indeed.

No doubt he is very sorry about it though and that it happened more than 10 years ago.

Maybe its time for JV to step down from his high horse, and realize that hiring a bunch of cheaters from the "dark years of the sport" isnt the best way to run a clean team?
Weltz was on USPS with JV , so his past is well known.
How would anyone run a "clean team" and not have someone from the "dark years". That's what Sky attempted, and we know how that went.
 
the sceptic said:
Maybe its time for JV to step down from his high horse, and realize that hiring a bunch of cheaters from the "dark years of the sport" isnt the best way to run a clean team?

Why?
I think he is going a good job, and Hesjedal has showed he is a big athlete.
He likes that phillosophy, it is the story of his life.

You say everybody dope today and you are surprising if someone doped 10 years ago,
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
@skidmark - yip, the last few days on this thread have been. Excellent, with many great arguements and contributions, and your post adds to it, great stuff.



For me - no, I don't think so. Remember JV himself doped, he can hardly hop on the high horse after. He did put it in place that if contacted any of his riders would be expected to co-operate and be able to retain their jobs if they were suspended.


Weltz was on USPS with JV , so his past is well known.
How would anyone run a "clean team" and not have someone from the "dark years". That's what Sky attempted, and we know how that went.
Indeed well known to jv who nonetheless hired him.
Thats a dubious decision at best.
Why not give some new young guy a chance? Or whomevr.
The comparison with sky is bad.
I think if youreally WANT to run a clean team, it should be comparatively easy to find untainted guys.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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sniper said:
Indeed well known to jv who nonetheless hired him.
Thats a dubious decision at best.
Why not give some new young guy a chance? Or whomevr.
The comparison with sky is bad.
I think if youreally WANT to run a clean team, it should be comparatively easy to find untainted guys.
Honestly, this coming from you is rather amusing.

Back to Weltz -why would there need to be a requirement for a new guy? This is JV Garmin, where they have a lot of people with a past (including JV). With Weltz he gets a guy he knows, the good and the bad.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Honestly, this coming from you is rather amusing.
i see your point, and, fair enough, it isn't easy (but not impossible either, me thinks).

be that as it may, the continuity between usps staff and garmin staff is remarkable and not reassuring.

Back to Weltz -why would there need to be a requirement for a new guy? This is JV Garmin, where they have a lot of people with a past (including JV). With Weltz he gets a guy he knows, the good and the bad
your glass is half full. fair enough.
 
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