JV talks, sort of

[hrotha]

I don't think it makes sense to question Slipstream now over signing the likes of Weltz and Hesjedal, when both are well within what's considered kosher given the team's apparent philosophy. Any objection to having those people on board should be independent of the new information on Hesjedal, since, again, that he doped was pretty much a given.

How they manage the crisis is an entirely different matter, though, and so far I've found their approach lacking.

 

[sniper]

I don't think it makes sense to question Slipstream now over signing the likes of Weltz and Hesjedal, when both are well within what's considered kosher given the team's apparent philosophy. Any objection to having those people on board should be independent of the new information on Hesjedal, since, again, that he doped was pretty much a given.

How they manage the crisis is an entirely different matter, though, and so far I've found their approach lacking.

agreed.
what i think is telling, though, and worthy of pointing out, is that an increasing bunch of unbiased, objective non-clinicians now question those signings, whereas a few months ago JV was under the firm impression that it was just a small number of consiparcists here in the clinic who did unfair questioning.

so while your right (there's no additional evidence), it is striking that now suddenly its fair to question those signings, whereas a few months ago (when the details weren't in the public domain yet) it apparently wasn't.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't think it makes sense to question Slipstream now over signing the likes of Weltz and Hesjedal, when both are well within what's considered kosher given the team's apparent philosophy. Any objection to having those people on board should be independent of the new information on Hesjedal, since, again, that he doped was pretty much a given.

How they manage the crisis is an entirely different matter, though, and so far I've found their approach lacking.

Dealing ought to be a lifetime ban. Encourage users to snitch off pushers/dealers by sweetheart deals, but there's no good reason for any tolerance of dealers in the sport (unless their connections are valuable).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't think it makes sense to question Slipstream now over signing the likes of Weltz and Hesjedal, when both are well within what's considered kosher given the team's apparent philosophy. Any objection to having those people on board should be independent of the new information on Hesjedal, since, again, that he doped was pretty much a given.

How they manage the crisis is an entirely different matter, though, and so far I've found their approach lacking.

Agree totally on the first paragraph.

But could you explain the second? I don't see how they are lacking but could be missing something.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

agreed.
what i think is telling, though, and worthy of pointing out, is that an increasing bunch of unbiased, objective non-clinicians now question those signings, whereas a few months ago JV was under the firm impression that it was just a small number of consiparcists here in the clinic who did unfair questioning.

so while your right (there's no additional evidence), it is striking that now suddenly its fair to question those signings, whereas a few months ago (when the details weren't in the public domain yet) it apparently wasn't.

Who are these "unbiased, objective non-clinicians", and what questions are being asked?

To the blue- how does finding out that RH doped change anything, when we know the exact same happened with CVV, DZ & TD?

 

[hrotha]

Agree totally on the first paragraph.

But could you explain the second? I don't see how they are lacking but could be missing something.

I explained here.

 

[MarkvW]

agreed.
what i think is telling, though, and worthy of pointing out, is that an increasing bunch of unbiased, objective non-clinicians now question those signings, whereas a few months ago JV was under the firm impression that it was just a small number of consiparcists here in the clinic who did unfair questioning.

so while your right (there's no additional evidence), it is striking that now suddenly its fair to question those signings, whereas a few months ago (when the details weren't in the public domain yet) it apparently wasn't.

I totally agreed with you until today. Until today there was no suspicion that Vaughters hired drug dealers. That suspicion needs to be cleared up.

 

[Benotti69]

@skidmark - yip, the last few days on this thread have been. Excellent, with many great arguements and contributions, and your post adds to it, great stuff.



For me - no, I don't think so. Remember JV himself doped, he can hardly hop on the high horse after. He did put it in place that if contacted any of his riders would be expected to co-operate and be able to retain their jobs if they were suspended.


Weltz was on USPS with JV , so his past is well known.
How would anyone run a "clean team" and not have someone from the "dark years". That's what Sky attempted, and we know how that went.

It went really well for Sky, 2 TdF wins, multiple GT podiums, multiple week long race wins...........and no suspensions for doping.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Dealing ought to be a lifetime ban. Encourage users to snitch off pushers/dealers by sweetheart deals, but there's no good reason for any tolerance of dealers in the sport (unless their connections are valuable).

Agree, beside we need additional information about these dealings: Where did he buy the drugs? Who got the drugs? Who were the doctors involved? How about the team managers and DSs? The facility in Luxembourg, who ran that?

So many questions and zero answers.

 

[thehog]

I totally agreed with you until today. Until today there was no suspicion that Vaughters hired drug dealers. That suspicion needs to be cleared up.

One town, Girona Spain.. Drug dealers/mulers. Former dopers.

It's set up very nicely.

Logistics.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I explained here.

Thanks.

Agree on that part - RHs story of stopping around 03/04 does not make much sense.
One point though is that it was the Chicken who outed RH, and that with the investigation ongoing in the US it is difficult for RH/JV/Garmin to fully clear up the actual details.

 

[pastronef]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 4h
@Ben_M_Berry would agree. Doesn't worry me. I've got an important meeting on Tues w a potential new large scale sponsor, so I'm prepping.

nice for him

 

[sniper]

Who are these "unbiased, objective non-clinicians", and what questions are being asked?

there've been a couple of tweets and blog entries questioning hesjedal's integrity.
(at least two retweeted by kimmage also.)
me thinks we can call those unbiased, objective non-clinicians, i.e. nonanonymous (public) figures, people without the "they-all-dope" bias jv used to accuse some clinicians of.

To the blue- how does finding out that RH doped change anything, when we know the exact same happened with CVV, DZ & TD?

doesn't change much to me, but jv is struggling to control the story now, whereas he looked in control a couple of months ago.

 

[Benotti69]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 4h
@Ben_M_Berry would agree. Doesn't worry me. I've got an important meeting on Tues w a potential new large scale sponsor, so I'm prepping.

nice for him

Amgen

10chara.....

 

[Benotti69]

@skidmark - yip, the last few days on this thread have been. Excellent, with many great arguements and contributions, and your post adds to it, great stuff.



For me - no, I don't think so. Remember JV himself doped, he can hardly hop on the high horse after. He did put it in place that if contacted any of his riders would be expected to co-operate and be able to retain their jobs if they were suspended.


Weltz was on USPS with JV , so his past is well known.
How would anyone run a "clean team" and not have someone from the "dark years". That's what Sky attempted, and we know how that went.

It went very well for Sky, they won 2 TdFs, multiple GT podiums, won lots of week long races.............and not a doping suspension to boot.

 

[thehog]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 4h
@Ben_M_Berry would agree. Doesn't worry me. I've got an important meeting on Tues w a potential new large scale sponsor, so I'm prepping.

nice for him

Which makes sense why he hit Twitter do hard.

Well done.

 

[sniper]

Dealing ought to be a lifetime ban. Encourage users to snitch off pushers/dealers by sweetheart deals, but there's no good reason for any tolerance of dealers in the sport (unless their connections are valuable).

agreed. good point.

It went really well for Sky, 2 TdF wins, multiple GT podiums, multiple week long race wins...........and no suspensions for doping.

+1

Agree, beside we need additional information about these dealings: Where did he buy the drugs? Who got the drugs? Who were the doctors involved? How about the team managers and DSs? The facility in Luxembourg, who ran that?

So many questions and zero answers.

this very much

One town, Girona Spain.. Drug dealers/mulers. Former dopers.

It's set up very nicely.

Logistics.

sshhh...conspiracy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

there've been a couple of tweets and blog entries questioning hesjedal's integrity.
(at least two retweeted by kimmage also.)
me thinks we can call those unbiased, objective non-clinicians, i.e. nonanonymous (public) figures, people without the "they-all-dope" bias jv used to accuse some clinicians of.

Tweets and blogs? Which you haven't pointed to?
The only question is whether RHs statements to USADA/CCES are true, and no-one has yet contradicted it.

t
doesn't change much to me, but jv is struggling to control the story now, whereas he looked in control a couple of months ago.

That has nothing to do with "it is striking that now suddenly its fair to question those signings".

 

[sniper]

One point though is that it was the Chicken who outed RH, and that with the investigation ongoing in the US it is difficult for RH/JV/Garmin to fully clear up the actual details.

perhaps they shouldn't scream clean so loud before these details are indeed fully cleared up.
if you cant provide transparency, perhaps better not to pretend.

 

[the sceptic]

Weltz was on USPS with JV , so his past is well known.
How would anyone run a "clean team" and not have someone from the "dark years". That's what Sky attempted, and we know how that went.

I agree with that. However what I meant was that I dont think JV is in a position to be playing martyr over this when he only has himself to blame.

If you dont mind me asking, has your opinion on JV changed in the last couple of days?

 

[thehog]

sshhh...conspiracy.

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Resources & planning.

Never forget that

 

[Dr. Maserati]

they shouldn't scream clean so loud before these details are indeed fully cleared up.
if you cant provide transparency, perhaps better not to pretend.

All the details that have come out about Garmin staff and riders all happened before they joined Garmin.

Again, you are the one who is assuming they are 'pretending'.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

So, the consensus among those who would like to rid cycling of doping is that "dealers" should be banned from the sport for life.

JV is outspoken about cleaning up cycling.

JV knows of Weltz's history both from being teammates with him, and I would assume from Garmin's in-house and highly lauded "confession sessions".

Now, JV is trying to control the narrative by dropping Weltz's CSC epo runs JUST prior to their disclosure in the Chicken's book. Much to the chagrin of the author, I might add.

JV, himself, is rapidly eroding any credibility he bought through Garmin's public and vociferous anti-doping stance...

 

[jens_attacks]

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 4h
@Ben_M_Berry would agree. Doesn't worry me. I've got an important meeting on Tues w a potential new large scale sponsor, so I'm prepping.

nice for him

gianetti still struggles and vaughters finds them everywhere

life is a biitch

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I agree with that. However what I meant was that I dont think JV is in a position to be playing martyr over this when he only has himself to blame.

If you dont mind me asking, has your opinion on JV changed in the last couple of days?

Firstly - I don't think he is playing the martyr. (although I havnt been up to date on twitter etc). He is trying to explain a difficult story that actually has little to do with him.

Ive no problem answering good questions - no, nothing has changed IMO.
Most of the stuff is old news or not surprising news. The one part I don't get is RH claiming that he stopped in 04, but JV has said if people have lied he will fire them - thats very significant and quite a bold thing to say.