JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

Some posters think Wiggins always doped, not sure about that idea myself.

always doped. Just not on the level you need to do in the procycling game for the road. Doping for the track for a coupla events a year is much different. And he got crap results, even when he targeted prologues and chronos.

Good rider he is. But could not climb a lick on the previous program. And could not beat Kloeden Hincapie or Cancellara when they were on their tip top TdF program.

You just dont ecide to start doping when you are 30.
This personality type, gives the game away at 26 and is off to civilian life and a 9to5

 

[lean mean &green]

Since this has turned into the bash JV thread I guess this is as good a place as any to ask for help.

I have a problem and i'm hoping for an assist from the clinic 12.

I remember reading Vaughters' articles in Cycle Sport many years ago as an impressionable young racer. There's one article in particular that I'd love to re-read for a laugh. My memory is a little fuzzy but I think I remember Vaughters attributing his success on Ventoux to his super-fancy custom made minimalist cycling shoes.

I'd love to make comparisons of it to the infamous "speedsuit" Tedtalk?

EDIT: the article in question would have been written around 1999 or 2000

 

[sniper]

...
So, yes - even clean teams will look at new methods. They looked at it and concluded it was unethical, not in law, but in principal. Good

think i have to roughly agree here.
more problematic to me has been jv's defense of the BP, rather than him stressing the gaps in the system. if he wants his clean riders to (continue to) be competitive, he should be focusing on the weak points of the BP.
Instead i feel that both in the press and here on the forum he's been trivializing (or simply ignoring) those weak points all too often, and iirc he even suggested once that we shouldn't give too much credence to ashenden's analyses.
while that maybe the case, he should be more concerned that ashenden's analyses are correct, and concerned about the lack of BP testing, etc.

 

[blackcat]

Since this has turned into the bash JV thread I guess this is as good a place as any to ask for help.

I have a problem and i'm hoping for an assist from the clinic 12.

I remember reading Vaughters' articles in Cycle Sport many years ago as an impressionable young racer. There's one article in particular that I'd love to re-read for a laugh. My memory is a little fuzzy but I think I remember Vaughters attributing his success on Ventoux to his super-fancy custom made minimalist cycling shoes.

I'd love to make comparisons of it to the infamous "speedsuit" Tedtalk?

EDIT: the article in question would have been written around 1999 or 2000

pretty funny.

just shows, he had no great concern weaving a fable

 

[SundayRider]

always doped. Just not on the level you need to do in the procycling game for the road. Doping for the track for a coupla events a year is much different. And he got crap results, even when he targeted prologues and chronos.

Good rider he is. But could not climb a lick on the previous program. And could not beat Kloeden Hincapie or Cancellara when they were on their tip top TdF program.

You just dont ecide to start doping when you are 30.
This personality type, gives the game away at 26 and is off to civilian life and a 9to5

Yeah I think your right. You don't go from clean your entire to career to starting doping in 2009 at the age he was then. Start small and gradually progress - the likes of TH book explains this. When he was outspoken about doping 'back in the day' he probably felt that he was 'clean' in relation to other riders.

 

[blackcat]

When he was outspoken about doping 'back in the day' he probably felt that he was 'clean' in relation to other riders.

this is what i wished to say before i tangentalised and extemporised in inscrutability.


he justified to himself.

and ever hear him crow from the "doth protest too much" conscience?

 

[SundayRider]

this is what i wished to say before i tangentalised and extemporised in inscrutability.


he justified to himself.

and ever hear him crow from the "doth protest too much" conscience?

His foul mouthed outburst at 2012 Tour was perfect example of this.

 

[blackcat]

His foul mouthed outburst at 2012 Tour was perfect example of this.

but when he came 4th in the 2007 TdF tt to Vino, Evans, and, I cant remember who came third. Someone came third. I think it coulda been someone like Kashechkin. Or Levi.

Anyway, Wiggo had a massive whinge coming 4th. (he actually mighta came 3rd).

whinge = whine. A cry, a sook. took his bat and went home. Prolly to take it out on Christiano Moreno or some other chump like a bully would

 

[SundayRider]

but when he came 4th in the 2007 TdF tt to Vino, Evans, and, I cant remember who came third. Someone came third. I think it coulda been someone like Kashechkin. Or Levi.

Anyway, Wiggo had a massive whinge coming 4th. (he actually mighta came 3rd).

whinge = whine. A cry, a sook. took his bat and went home. Prolly to take it out on Christiano Moreno or some other chump like a bully would

Wiggo was ahead of the curve he started the 'new generation' idea back in 2007http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/jul/27/cycling.tourdefrance1

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

but when he came 4th in the 2007 TdF tt to Vino, Evans, and, I cant remember who came third. Someone came third. I think it coulda been someone like Kashechkin. Or Levi.

Anyway, Wiggo had a massive whinge coming 4th. (he actually mighta came 3rd).

whinge = whine. A cry, a sook. took his bat and went home. Prolly to take it out on Christiano Moreno or some other chump like a bully would

5th. Vino, Evans, Klöden (despite falling) and Kashechkin beat him.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

When he was outspoken about doping 'back in the day' he probably felt that he was 'clean' in relation to other riders.

Perhaps he felt he was clean in relation to people that were doping. Of course you could use your argument for Bassons.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

5th. Vino, Evans, Klöden (despite falling) and Kashechkin beat him.

And he dreamed of one day winning that stage and that stage alone. One day. If he was really on song.

Good.

Grief.

 

[blackcat]

5th. Vino, Evans, Klöden (despite falling) and Kashechkin beat him.

ta, for some reason, when I thought of Hilde (hild-ie) /Kloeden, I got the prologue in London where they pantsed Wigans with Hilde, Hincapie, and Cancellara rounding out the podium. That was 2007 also?

 

[Benotti69]

Perhaps he felt he was clean in relation to people that were doping. Of course you could use your argument for Bassons.

Bassons doped? since when?

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah I think your right. You don't go from clean your entire to career to starting doping in 2009 at the age he was then. Start small and gradually progress - the likes of TH book explains this. When he was outspoken about doping 'back in the day' he probably felt that he was 'clean' in relation to other riders.

This is what i take from JV. He is comparing the height of the epo era to now and says the sport is much cleanER, he is not far off, but that cannot be sustained as inevitably someone ups the game to win (Sky)......

I beleive Garmin do it to a level that is 'clean in relation to dark era' but that still means doping.

 

[pmcg76]

This is what i take from JV. He is comparing the height of the epo era to now and says the sport is much cleanER, he is not far off, but that cannot be sustained as inevitably someone ups the game to win (Sky)......

I beleive Garmin do it to a level that is 'clean in relation to dark era' but that still means doping.

As usual there is a logical disconnect here. If the primary reason for doping is success is money and success as claimed by many on here. Why would you only do it to a certain level. If there is little chance of being caught(again another line thrown out around here), why hold back?

If Garmin are keeping it to a lower level there has to be some logical reason for doing so as it means they willingly reduce their chances of bigger victories i.e more success and money. After all JV is in this sport for his bank account according to you.

 

[Benotti69]

As usual there is a logical disconnect here.

Not from where i see it.

If the primary reason for doping is success is money and success as claimed by many on here. Why would you only do it to a certain level. If there is little chance of being caught(again another line thrown out around here), why hold back?

Why to a certain level? Simple, not to get caught by a backstabbing Hein?McQuaid would be one good reason. For calling Garmin a clean team and therefore insinuating all the rest are not is another. To be sure of not testing positive even if they back date testing.

If Garmin are keeping it to a lower level there has to be some logical reason for doing so as it means they willingly reduce their chances of bigger victories i.e more success and money. After all JV is in this sport for his bank account according to you.

Mis interpreting my previous posts.

JV is in it for the money. He doesn't run Garmin as a charity. To me his team doping has been a success. A GT and a monument and i dont think that can be achieved on pan y agua.

JV spends half a million testing his own riders. Why spend that if you trust them? Or are you testing them due to their doping programs? I guess the latter.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

If Garmin are keeping it to a lower level there has to be some logical reason for doing so as it means they willingly reduce their chances of bigger victories i.e more success and money. After all JV is in this sport for his bank account according to you.

I think Garmin is selling stability. JV's early comments comparing Slipstream to the Chicago Cubs illustrate the strategy.

A big dominant team like T-Mobile, USPS, Sky model are going to be feast/famine. A couple years of dominance, and then the whole thing collapses. JV wants to be there year in and year out. The Cubs don't win much, but Wrigley is always full and they always make money. He sells, dependable visibility, competitiveness and no scandals.

Whether or not this translates to "clean" cycling is up for debate (obviously).

 

[Benotti69]

............After all JV is in this sport for his bank account according to you.

Have you forgotten that JV was trying to set up a breakaway league from UCI with that oh so clean DS Bruyneel.

JV aint clean and is ambitious. I dont have a problem with ambition, but in this sport it means that one must take the dirty road and JV has been down that road and wanted to control a new road with a guy like Bruyneel and no doubt Armstrong was going to be part of the new league in some manner.

 

[lean mean &green]

I finally got around to watching Kuurne Brussels Kuurne off my DVR today. It looked like Van Summeren, who made the decisive break, chose not to wear a skin suit or aero helmet. If you'll remember the skin suit is what JV says won him Paris Roubaix a few seasons ago. I guess the Garmin advantage, obsessive attention to detail (also affectionately known as marginal gains), has been abandoned?!?!

Coincidentally, winner Tom Boonen DID don the proper attire.

I just love pointing out the inconsistency of all of this excuse making. it's plain stupid.

 

[Netserk]

Mis interpreting my previous posts.

JV is in it for the money. He doesn't run Garmin as a charity. To me his team doping has been a success. A GT and a monument and i dont think that can be achieved on pan y agua.

JV spends half a million testing his own riders. Why spend that if you trust them? Or are you testing them due to their doping programs? I guess the latter.

Two monuments. Remember P-R

 

[Benotti69]

Two monuments. Remember P-R

Ta for the correction.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

JV spends half a million testing his own riders. Why spend that if you trust them? Or are you testing them due to their doping programs? I guess the latter.

This is another point of yours I always have issue with. Would you trust a team without internal testing, more? [A better criticism was that they have internal testing but could not out a doper like JTL through their recruitment process.]

I won't put words in JV's mouth, but he shouldn't trust them. I'm assuming that at some point he stated or implied that he does trust, but obviously not enough, as shown by the testing's existence.

 

[Benotti69]

This is another point of yours I always have issue with. Would you trust a team without internal testing, more? [A better criticism was that they have internal testing but could not out a doper like JTL through their recruitment process.]

I won't put words in JV's mouth, but he shouldn't trust them. I'm assuming that at some point he stated or implied that he does trust, but obviously not enough, as shown by the testing's existence.

I think most of the top teams have internal testing as part of the doping programs. Makes sense in order to monitor riders BP and avoids positives.

If any of JV's riders are doping unbeknownst to him like a Wiggins in 2009 as he said Wiggins was doing his own thing, what it the point of internal testing as it failed to catch out Wiggins and gave no heads up on JTL, but that is if JV is not telling lies

 

[WinterRider]

I think most of the top teams have internal testing as part of the doping programs. Makes sense in order to monitor riders BP and avoids positives.

If any of JV's riders are doping unbeknownst to him like a Wiggins in 2009 as he said Wiggins was doing his own thing, what it the point of internal testing as it failed to catch out Wiggins and gave no heads up on JTL, but that is if JV is not telling lies

How could JV's testing have given a heads up on JTL? They only caught him by comparing blood values over a larger time scale than JV had access to. Specifically comparing his blood pre Sky to his values after he joined sky.

I never did understand the insinuation that either Sky or Garmin should somehow have spotted this, when it was the difference from doped levels pre sky to presumably non/less/differently doped values post sky that nailed him.

Or at least, that's my best guess based on everything we've seen thus far.