JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

The thing that gets me about JV is with Hesjedal's blood values rising in the 3rd week and pointing to doping, why would JV not find out if the Labs machine was calibrated and if not that would mean everyone's levels were off and those levels could be higher than the machine showed. But no blow it off as 'machine calibration error' and do nothing more. Why not get the sample retested? I mean he wants to tell the wold that doping is not cool for the new generation, why not show Hesjedals numbers point to a clean win and why leave it hanging on a comment that proves little and we know Hesjedal doped on Disco and most probably on Phonak so why not go the extra effort to show the machine was the error and not the rider. Cos JV lied.

Just like he said Froome has 'crazy adaptive physiology' that never showed itself till Froome hit 27.

Snakeoil.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The thing that gets me about JV is with Hesjedal's blood values rising in the 3rd week and pointing to doping, why would JV not find out if the Labs machine was calibrated and if not that would mean everyone's levels were off and those levels could be higher than the machine showed. But no blow it off as 'machine calibration error' and do nothing more. Why not get the sample retested? I mean he wants to tell the wold that doping is not cool for the new generation, why not show Hesjedals numbers point to a clean win and why leave it hanging on a comment that proves little and we know Hesjedal doped on Disco and most probably on Phonak so why not go the extra effort to show the machine was the error and not the rider. Cos JV lied.

Just like he said Froome has 'crazy adaptive physiology' that never showed itself till Froome hit 27.

Snakeoil.

The alleged calibration error happened pre-comp, 2 days before the Giro. Just a reminder.

The mid-Giro rise was more down to alleged machine / operator / transport error within acceptable parameters.

I asked JV to show dom values that proved the elevated Hct values across the board (pre-Giro), but apparently I had already made up my mind, and seeing raw data in the form of numbers would be influenced by my agenda. I did not pursue a line of questioning further to determine how numbers could be so influenced by agenda, given it's a simple average vs instantaneous comparison.

I did email Francasca Rossi to ask if she had in fact told JV that everyone tested high - as he eventually confessed after some questioning as to the source of the information, but she did not reply, as expected.

 

[Benotti69]

The alleged calibration error happened pre-comp, 2 days before the Giro. Just a reminder.

The mid-Giro rise was more down to alleged machine / operator / transport error within acceptable parameters.

I asked JV to show dom values that proved the elevated Hct values across the board (pre-Giro), but apparently I had already made up my mind, and seeing raw data in the form of numbers would be influenced by my agenda. I did not pursue a line of questioning further to determine how numbers could be so influenced by agenda, given it's a simple average vs instantaneous comparison.

I did email Francasca Rossi to ask if she had in fact told JV that everyone tested high - as he eventually confessed after some questioning as to the source of the information, but she did not reply, as expected.

This is one of the reasons i think JV is so full of it. If you were a clean team you would be doing your damnedest to get the correct result with a retest or getting the official confirmation that the machine made the error and putting out there with a "yes peeps we do it clean". But nope, obfuscation and silence.

 

[sniper]

Why is it any different to Clinicians "knowing" that a rider. Is dirty?

have you been living in a cave? this is cycling.
saying you 'simply know' rider X is clean (even though you've hardly spent time with rider X throughout the year) is like claiming you 'simply know' Blatter is not corrupt.
Iow, it's a statement with a heavy burden of proof.

 

[blackcat]

JV should be qualified to know better than most of us...
Sniper used the word "clean"...
I dunno if it's an exact quote from JV...
But clean could also equal:

That his riders are operating within the ABP limits.

Also if you mask a doping substance/microdose -you might be clean in a test right?

Thus clean, but maybe still doping...

Might seem far-fetched..

But think about it..
Is clean just the new mean?

yes, Obama and the CIA just redefined imminent threat in terms even George Orwell would be proud

 

[D-Queued]

are you seriously entertaining the thought that he wasn't aware?
sort of like Brailsford not knowing Leinders was blooddoping riders at Rabo, dont you think?

No. Quite the opposite.

I am saying that we can completely disregard any remote possibility of this because fools like me were pointing it out to him.

He knew before we spoke. That was clear from the dialog.

that's fair, in principle, but aren't things slightly different though if you 'dedicate your life to anti-doping' and your guy, whom you know was a blooddoper, is about to win the Giro?
and how is JV going about checking if his riders play by his rules? Let's consider Hesjedal: how many weeks of the year do you think JV and Hesjedal spend in eachother's presence?
Just sayin, JV's claim that he 'simply knows' his riders are clean should be considered one the biggest insults to the Clinic's intelligence in recent times.

Um, you are paying attention, right?

Because JV claims to spend half a million dollars on internal testing.

What he said.

He actually has a system in place. Compare that to, say, Astana.

Given that you don't believe a single thing he says, your response is unfortunately predictable on this.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

i cant believe that after following political shenanigans and double speak in other realm, i never cottoned on to how JV was engaging with us.

so stupids so stupids

oh so embarrassments such embarrass

palm face, sunday palm easter

 

[sniper]

No. Quite the opposite.

I am saying that we can completely disregard any remote possibility of this because fools like me were pointing it out to him.

He knew before we spoke. That was clear from the dialog.

fair enough.

What he said.

He actually has a system in place. Compare that to, say, Astana.

Given that you don't believe a single thing he says, your response is unfortunately predictable on this.

Dave.

i see your point.
but are you suggesting his 'system' is better than, say, UCI's anti-doping testing?
because i'd guess about 95% of the riders are flying below the UCI anti-doping radar, and why wouldn't a similar percentage fly below Garmin's internal radar.
and nota bene, JV has, to my knowledge, never brought up Garmin's internal testing system as an argument why he believes hesjedal is clean. He's pointed to the UCI test results and has alluded to good faith ('I simply know'). But nothing about internal testing proving or indicating Hesjedal is clean.
Speaks volumes, don't it.
(cf. Benotti's and DW's posts, it's the complete lack of extra effort on the part of JV to prove Hesjedal won the Giro clean that rings alarmbells)

 

[mrhender]

yes, Obama and the CIA just redefined imminent threat in terms even George Orwell would be proud

And so it is Hip To Be Square

 

[thehog]

Thought it a bit of a funny throwback to the FFF.

Anyhow, it fits. Garmin has 'rules'.

Based upon what we understand (all public), the riders have to follow the rules. Those rules obviously include UCI/WADA's policies, as well as the team's internal testing and conduct requirements.

Thus, it wouldn't be sufficient to simply state 'ride clean', would it?

Dave.

Garmin doesn't have "rules". It is a limited company which has employees. Let's not confuse the issue by claiming that it's something that it's not. The riders have contracts with Garmin which states the what they have to adhere to. The relationship is purely contractual. Nothing else.

And for the recorded; "anti-doping" is not a rule, it's a marketing statement.

 

[blackcat]

And so it is Hip To Be Square

hipsters in argyle strikethru aigle

 

[mrhender]

hipsters in argyle strikethru aigle

 

[Benotti69]

He actually has a system in place. Compare that to, say, Astana.

Given that you don't believe a single thing he says, your response is unfortunately predictable on this.

Dave.

I am sure Astana have a system in place. It wouldn't surprise me if Vino wanted rid of the Iglinksy's and therefore they tested positive.

My predictable response? Snakeoil.

 

[the sceptic]

I am sure Astana have a system in place. It wouldn't surprise me if Vino wanted rid of the Iglinksy's and therefore they tested positive.

My predictable response? Snakeoil.

If Vino wanted to get rid of them im sure there are easier ways than getting all that bad publicity for no reason.

 

[Benotti69]

If Vino wanted to get rid of them im sure there are easier ways than getting all that bad publicity for no reason.

that is true, but maybe Vino wanted them tainted and was prepared for the bad publicity...

 

[westerner]

MPCC have rules: http://http://www.mpcc.fr/index.php/en/mpcc-uk

Which is a set of rules Slipstream does publicly follow as a member.

Teams like AG2R have a published ethics policy which go further:

http://http://www.cyclisme.ag2rlamondiale.fr/en/ethique/ethique

Why can the 'clean team' not publish it's rules on its web site and be fully transparent with its rules and policies?

People who care about this stuff want some data: why not publish info on internal tests: athlete name/date/substances screened for, and publish the same info for in/out comp tests done at events and ADA's

USADA at least give some basic stats on Athlete test history:

http://http://www.usada.org/testing/results/athlete-test-history/

It certainly would be interesting to see the testing stats, especially for those athletes who live/train in remote locations.

And...I for one would be more able to take what JV says a bit more seriously if he would change that stupid twitter profile of his.

As a person with his history as an athlete who doped, claiming to dedicate his life to anti-doping is just down-right tone deaf and dumb

 

[thehog]

Garmin, Sky etc. all keep stating they are clean without providing any data to demonstrate as such.

In any other industry that type of policy would be laughed at.

 

[blackcat]

And...I for one would be more able to take what JV says a bit more seriously if he would change that stupid twitter profile of his.

As a person with his history as an athlete who doped, claiming to dedicate his life to anti-doping is just down-right tone deaf and dumb

didnt ya know, in this epoch of bernays spin, you can be all that you say you are #simulcra

 

[D-Queued]

...
.
but are you suggesting his 'system' is better than, say, UCI's anti-doping testing?
because i'd guess about 95% of the riders are flying below the UCI anti-doping radar, and why wouldn't a similar percentage fly below Garmin's internal radar.
and nota bene, JV has, to my knowledge, never brought up Garmin's internal testing system as an argument why he believes hesjedal is clean. He's pointed to the UCI test results and has alluded to good faith ('I simply know'). But nothing about internal testing proving or indicating Hesjedal is clean.
Speaks volumes, don't it.
(cf. Benotti's and DW's posts, it's the complete lack of extra effort on the part of JV to prove Hesjedal won the Giro clean that rings alarmbells)

I cannot question your 95%.

On which program is better, my first response was of course not. The UCI has a fully funded anti-doping mandate, and it should be impossible for any team to do better.

On second thought, I need to adjust that statement to: 'I hope not'.

As in, I want to hope the friggin UCI is enforcing a tough set of anti-doping policies instead of the crap we have witnessed under Phat and Nein.

Note that I can only say "I hope". But, there is some substance to that hope.

As for your points on releasing the team data, I wish JV would share something with us.

Why he might not, however, is potentially understandable for at least a couple of reasons. First, there may be confidentiality issues involved and in multiple legal jurisdictions given the nature of training and competing. Second, it isn't clear that they enforce a standard set of tests that would be readily comparable to other individuals, sports or teams. That isn't necessarily bad, but may make the data not very useful to a larger audience.

In either case, or in the case of something different, it would be helpful if he would provide us with some insight in terms of why the data isn't shared.

Silence, as they say, is the devil's playground.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

borrowing this from blutto's post in the LeMond thread

...snipped........

....pro cycling is a business and entertainment, and while it is often sold as a morality play, it most definitely is not...and unfortunately thems just the brass tacks....and if you think otherwise or hope for something different....well.....that is entirely your prerogative....me, I haven't believed in Santa Claus for quite a while...

...hope you pleasant dreams...

here's the JV snakeoil bit, "while it is often sold as a morality play, it most definitely is not"....JV likes to sell us the 'morality play' which he claims his team adheres to, but in reality he adheres to the business and entertainment model.......

 

[blackcat]

borrowing this from blutto's post in the LeMond thread



here's the JV snakeoil bit, "while it is often sold as a morality play, it most definitely is not"....JV likes to sell us the 'morality play' which he claims his team adheres to, but in reality he adheres to the business and entertainment model.......

hmm,does he "sell it", or does he leave enough scope for us to believe he is selling it, when he is selling his business operation (model) and engaging the entertainment switch.

he leaves just enough ambiguity for us to believe that it is the the moralty play. Hence,the Lampre or Liquigas Italian folks referred to Garmin as "those @rseholes".

 

[Benotti69]

hmm,does he "sell it", or does he leave enough scope for us to believe he is selling it, when he is selling his business operation (model) and engaging the entertainment switch.

he leaves just enough ambiguity for us to believe that it is the the moralty play. Hence,the Lampre or Liquigas Italian folks referred to Garmin at "those @rseholes".

Yes he sold it to Kimmage and Walsh and through them sold the world he ran a clean team.

Funny that Liquigas is now part of those @rseholes....

 

[sniper]

hmm,does he "sell it", or does he leave enough scope for us to believe he is selling it, when he is selling his business operation (model) and engaging the entertainment switch.

he leaves just enough ambiguity for us to believe that it is the the moralty play. Hence,the Lampre or Liquigas Italian folks referred to Garmin as "those @rseholes".

statements like "it's not what the cool kids do anymore" and "dopers are nowadays ostracized"...
he's sellingn the morality play alright.
and through him so are his mouthpieces Millar and the other Garmin riders.
"culture" and "attitude" are key words they all take recourse to.
This is from Millar:

It’s all unified. The Anglos have brought in the biggest leap forward, we have a different culture when it comes to cycling, we see it as a technological sport; Europeans have seen it as a purely physical sport. Where there are machines, and bicycles are machines, there are opportunities to increase performance through research and development. The sport as whole has realised this now, what was just an Anglo attitude has become a necessary attitude for everybody if they want to stand a chance of winning.

or take this one:

Former teammates describe change in attitude after Lance years.
... The turning points for the riders who came forward to testify against Armstrong vary, but each affidavit sheds some light on their changing attitudes as they distanced themselves from Armstrong.

pass the bucket.

 

[biokemguy]

As for your points on releasing the team data, I wish JV would share something with us.

Why he might not, however, is potentially understandable for at least a couple of reasons. First, there may be confidentiality issues involved and in multiple legal jurisdictions given the nature of training and competing. Second, it isn't clear that they enforce a standard set of tests that would be readily comparable to other individuals, sports or teams. That isn't necessarily bad, but may make the data not very useful to a larger audience.

Dave.

Seems like he could at least post aggregate team data. Say a monthly summary of substances tested for with results for each substance. He could include off scores without names to at least show the tests are done and always come back negative/normal (if in fact the team is clean).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As for your points on releasing the team data, I wish JV would share something with us.

Why he might not, however, is potentially understandable for at least a couple of reasons. First, there may be confidentiality issues involved and in multiple legal jurisdictions given the nature of training and competing.

Second, it isn't clear that they enforce a standard set of tests that would be readily comparable to other individuals, sports or teams. That isn't necessarily bad, but may make the data not very useful to a larger audience.

Just release data for a rider(s) with no names. Done. No confidentiality problems. As long as there are dates, of course.

Huh.

Just realised when JV said the riders all tested high at the start of the Giro, and I asked him why, he said team doctors told him. I didn't believe this and questioned it.

He changed the story to Francesca Rossi telling him.

And I only just realised now that he never said, "well, we track the parameters of our athletes and could see from previous figures that they tested high pre-Giro".

Either because:
1. they don't track their athlete's parameters - either internally or via ADAMS access
2. it was a bunch of BS re: everyone testing high

Sometimes I hate being slow.

Anyway.

If, as you suggest, JV does not have internal testing results that are comparable to other teams / riders, then WTF are they testing, and WTF for?

ACE was their idea and implemented by CSC and Garmin back in the day, at allegedly great expense. Did they throw all that out the window when ABP implemented most of the ACE ideas? Do something completely new and different?

Dodgy as excretive expletive.