JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

I dunno. Apart from the perception (real or unwarranted) that Garmin is a cleaner team I don't really see a reason to take a pay cut if I were a rider capable of performing clean at a reasonably high level.

1. the market does not rate losers.

2. cycling values the top step of the podium FAAAAR and away disproportionately. No one remembers second and third. The wins are what the sponsors want.

 

[blackcat]

Moreover, it could be that these guys are more likely (higher probability) to get (higher) sponsorship dollars. At least that could be part of their expectation, which would help offset against lower salary demands.

But in the long run, in cycling plus other sports, are not sponsors willing to take a hit in the short term. USPS managed the whispers away in the early 2000s. RADIO SHACK!!! well, you might devils advocate the question how RS are doing now? chapter 11? Festina came back the next year, werent their studies on that and how much positive publicity, or, the function of the scandal went on to be publicity which sold watches?

LaVieClaire/Look Tapie....


The one thing I see in this factor DQ, is why teams do some much of the Burson Marstellar narrative control, attempting to sell the clean myth. Garmin, Sky. And I dont think it is any coincidence, both from anglophone countries, who have some atavistic puritanism. I think it was Rhubroma who posted a great reply on the febrile doping narrative in America, and how it is bound to be viewed by continentals thru a continental lens. (and hypocrisy, grand hypocrisy).

You can only get sponsored if you are clean if i) you get traction, you get recognition, you are on the radar, there is a freekin radar, and ii) you can prove or sell yourself as clean.

well, ii) is as easy as G A R M I N Aretha Franklin respect!!! Or EPO Cheats Out!!! Lying bloody lying freekin hypocrite doper doping Paula Radcliffe. Say you are clean = simulcra = being clean by saying it.

saying it is the only thing that matters.

no actually, winning, getting cut-thru, getting traction and recognition + saying you are clean is what matters. even when you are not clean. Like Lance.

donating for Sysmex machines matters. Getting Iban Mayo busted cos you are for clean athletes matters. Controlling the media narrative matters.

 

[sniper]

Link? I guess Hesjedal didn't get the memo...

indeed, i'd like to see a link to that too.

is it really all about words or did JV do something tangible to make some guys (not many in here, but many out there) put faith in him?

Let's face it: all this new age talk about how cycling has cleaned up, in actuality it doesn't really help cleaning up cycling now does it. On the contrary, what it provokes, at best, is immobilization of any genuine antidoping movement. And you know what? I think it's a deliberate attempt by the likes of JV/Brailsford to achieve that.
'Doping stopped with Lance, so let's stop talking about it and let's start putting some blind faith in these new young lads.'
It was JV/Brailford's message first and foremost, though meanwhile of course the message and accompanying vocabulary has spread like wildfire throughout the peloton.

The message that clean riders can now win GTs and monuments, it implies that doping is not much of a problem anymore, or at least that the proteams have it under control.
I don't see how anyone can reconcile this talk with true antidoping. It's the new omerta and the dopers love it. Complacency.

'No positives at the 2014 TdF'.
Thanks to JV/Brailsford cleanER-campaign, the entire press buys it.

Not to mention David Walsh, who borrowed much of his apologetic Sky vocabulary from JV.

So yes, give me Riis, Lefevere, Vino any time over salesmen like Vaughters and Brailsford. The latter two currently do more to immobilize antidoping than the former three.

 

[blackcat]

indeed, i'd like to see a link to that too.

is it really all about words or did JV do something tangible to make some guys (not many in here, but many out there) put faith in him?

Let's face it: all this new age talk about how cycling has cleaned up, in actuality it doesn't really help cleaning up cycling now does it. On the contrary, what it provokes, at best, is immobilization of any genuine antidoping movement. And you know what? I think it's a deliberate attempt by the likes of JV/Brailsford to achieve that.
'Doping stopped with Lance, so let's stop talking about it and let's start putting some blind faith in these new young lads.'
It was JV/Brailford's message first and foremost, though meanwhile of course the message and accompanying vocabulary has spread like wildfire throughout the peloton.

The message that clean riders can now win GTs and monuments, it implies that doping is not much of a problem anymore, or at least that the proteams have it under control.
I don't see how anyone can reconcile this talk with true antidoping. It's the new omerta and the dopers love it. Complacency.

'No positives at the 2014 TdF'.
Thanks to JV/Brailsford cleanER-campaign, the entire press buys it.

Not to mention David Walsh, who borrowed much of his apologetic Sky vocabulary from JV.

So yes, give me Riis, Lefevere, Vino any time over salesmen like Vaughters and Brailsford. The latter two currently do more to immobilize antidoping than the former three.

MCE


machine

calibration

error
MCE

They used to get tattooed "no dope, i'm clean, i'm natural"

the new tattoo is MCE.

 

[blackcat]

indeed, i'd like to see a link to that too.

is it really all about words or did JV do something tangible to make some guys (not many in here, but many out there) put faith in him?

Let's face it: all this new age talk about how cycling has cleaned up, in actuality it doesn't really help cleaning up cycling now does it. On the contrary, what it provokes, at best, is immobilization of any genuine antidoping movement. And you know what? I think it's a deliberate attempt by the likes of JV/Brailsford to achieve that.
'Doping stopped with Lance, so let's stop talking about it and let's start putting some blind faith in these new young lads.'
It was JV/Brailford's message first and foremost, though meanwhile of course the message and accompanying vocabulary has spread like wildfire throughout the peloton.

The message that clean riders can now win GTs and monuments, it implies that doping is not much of a problem anymore, or at least that the proteams have it under control.
I don't see how anyone can reconcile this talk with true antidoping. It's the new omerta and the dopers love it. Complacency.

'No positives at the 2014 TdF'.
Thanks to JV/Brailsford cleanER-campaign, the entire press buys it.

Not to mention David Walsh, who borrowed much of his apologetic Sky vocabulary from JV.

So yes, give me Riis, Lefevere, Vino any time over salesmen like Vaughters and Brailsford. The latter two currently do more to immobilize antidoping than the former three.

one thing good in the "cycling's cleaned up" talking point. admission cycling was cess pool

Armstrong further admission cycling = cess pool.

Now, when Lance says cycling has cleaned up, are we supposed to take the opposite pov because he is an anti-social personality disorder liar. ofcourse we are.

 

[sniper]

MCE


machine

calibration

error
MCE

They used to get tattooed "no dope, i'm clean, i'm natural"

the new tattoo is MCE.

one thing good in the "cycling's cleaned up" talking point. admission cycling was cess pool

Armstrong further admission cycling = cess pool.

Now, when Lance says cycling has cleaned up, are we supposed to take the opposite pov because he is an anti-social personality disorder liar. ofcourse we are.

if that's what armstrong says, it suggests he's been on the phone with vaughters recently.

and i doubt it's what armstrong really thinks, but what else can he say.
it's in his interest to pretend in his time doping was as widespread as never before and never after.
he also knows vaughters and brailsford enjoy more credibility than he himself, so no use for Lance to go contradict those two goeroes.

 

[sniper]

Aaron and Erker implicitly question Garmin:

While many teams over the years have boasted to be clean, ?we actually are the clean team,? says team owner and managing director Charles Aaron

and explicitly as well:

But Aaron takes a tougher stance, even though he realizes that all dopers are not necessarily bad people. ?I understand why some people make wrong decisions, decisions that they may later truly and whole-heartedly regret,? he says, ?but nonetheless, we just don?t want those people on our team.? Erker reinforces this statement, while citing a different example. ?Some folks say that everyone deserves a second chance, but I don?t think cycling owes dopers a job. It?s more like the lawyer who gets disbarred; he can go do anything else he wants to, he just can?t be a lawyer again. Our attitude to dopers is ? go away and do something else, cycling doesn?t need you.?

http://www.theouterline.com/team-optum-a-model-for-the-future/

 

[pmcg76]

Aaron and Erker implicitly question Garmin:


and explicitly as well:

http://www.theouterline.com/team-optum-a-model-for-the-future/

Maybe instead of always trying to find an angle to attack Garmin with, you should actually check if what the guy is saying has any credence by your own logic.

1. Optum have Tom Zirbel on their roster, a guy who was all set to join Garmin until he tested positive. He finished 4th in the Worlds TT in 2009, the year he tested positive.

2. Optum have recruited about 6/7 former Garmin riders down through the years. Guys who were based in Girona whilst with Garmin. One of those is Phil Gaimon who is best buds with Tom Danielson.

3. They also have a few ex-Spidertech riders, Ryan Anderson and Will Routley on their roster. Where did Spidertech base themselves whilst in Europe? Yep, you guessed it, Girona!!

3. Just this season they have sent one of their guys Carter Jones to join Garmin.

4. Their roster also includes Bjorn Selander who rode for Trek-Livestrong/Radioshack and Guillame Boivin who just spent two seasons at Cannondale.

5. One of their DS is Eric Wohlberg who rode for Saturn during the Horner/Danielson/O'Neill era.

6. They had a guy, Sebastian Salas banned for missing anti-doping tests.

By your own silly joining-the-dots thinking, that makes them dirty as hell. Scoring own goals as always sniper.

For the record, I believe these guys are a genuine clean team. That has been the word on the grapevine for a long time, but then that is the same grapevine that I also hear Garmin are not running a doping program.

 

[D-Queued]

Maybe instead of always trying to find an angle to attack Garmin with, you should actually check if what the guy is saying has any credence by your own logic.

1. Optum have Tom Zirbel on their roster, a guy who was all set to join Garmin until he tested positive. He finished 4th in the Worlds TT in 2009, the year he tested positive.

2. Optum have recruited about 6/7 former Garmin riders down through the years. Guys who were based in Girona whilst with Garmin. One of those is Phil Gaimon who is best buds with Tom Danielson.

3. They also have a few ex-Spidertech riders, Ryan Anderson and Will Routley on their roster. Where did Spidertech base themselves whilst in Europe? Yep, you guessed it, Girona!!

3. Just this season they have sent one of their guys Carter Jones to join Garmin.

4. Their roster also includes Bjorn Selander who rode for Trek-Livestrong/Radioshack and Guillame Boivin who just spent two seasons at Cannondale.

5. One of their DS is Eric Wohlberg who rode for Saturn during the Horner/Danielson/O'Neill era.

6. They had a guy, Sebastian Salas banned for missing anti-doping tests.

By your own silly joining-the-dots thinking, that makes them dirty as hell. Scoring own goals as always sniper.

For the record, I believe these guys are a genuine clean team. That has been the word on the grapevine for a long time, but then that is the same grapevine that I also hear Garmin are not running a doping program.

There is a thread on Optum. Is there a reason you aren't commenting?

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Maybe instead of always trying to find an angle to attack Garmin with, you should actually check if what the guy is saying has any credence by your own logic.

1. Optum have Tom Zirbel on their roster, a guy who was all set to join Garmin until he tested positive. He finished 4th in the Worlds TT in 2009, the year he tested positive.

2. Optum have recruited about 6/7 former Garmin riders down through the years. Guys who were based in Girona whilst with Garmin. One of those is Phil Gaimon who is best buds with Tom Danielson.

3. They also have a few ex-Spidertech riders, Ryan Anderson and Will Routley on their roster. Where did Spidertech base themselves whilst in Europe? Yep, you guessed it, Girona!!

3. Just this season they have sent one of their guys Carter Jones to join Garmin.

4. Their roster also includes Bjorn Selander who rode for Trek-Livestrong/Radioshack and Guillame Boivin who just spent two seasons at Cannondale.

5. One of their DS is Eric Wohlberg who rode for Saturn during the Horner/Danielson/O'Neill era.

6. They had a guy, Sebastian Salas banned for missing anti-doping tests.

excellent post, very interesting.

By your own silly joining-the-dots thinking, that makes them dirty as hell. Scoring own goals as always sniper.

I wasn't claiming Team Optum to be clean, was I? (why would I claim that anyway?)
I just noticed the quite explicit dig at Garmin in that interview, which made me wonder what JV would have to say to that.
Perhaps some private animosity between the two? just guessing of course.
In any case, your post sheds interesting light on the connections between the two teams in terms of staff. The Girona link is also interesting.

For the record, I believe these guys are a genuine clean team. That has been the word on the grapevine for a long time, but then that is the same grapevine that I also hear Garmin are not running a doping program.

you hear in the Clinic that Garmin is not running a doping program.
don't need the grapevine for that.
What they are running, by their own admission, is an internal testing program the purpose of which (duh) is to have nobody test positive.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

I just noticed the quite explicit dig at Garmin in that interview, which made me wonder what JV would have to say to that.
Perhaps some private animosity between the two? just guessing of course.
In any case, your post sheds interesting light on the connections between the two teams in terms of staff. The Girona link is also interesting.

A lot of bad feelings directed towards Garmin are probably due to Danielson. The guy never rode clean in the US, and then Garmin takes care of him for years while he gets his sh!t together. And he is just a total d!ck.

Plenty of other US riders could have used a chance like that.

Then of course Vaughter's habit of dropping guys rather unceremoniously, and having a bad attitude towards guys he just feels aren't talented enough.

Just being the 'clean' team isn't enough to make everyone like you.

 

[sniper]

A lot of bad feelings directed towards Garmin are probably due to Danielson. The guy never rode clean in the US, and then Garmin takes care of him for years while he gets his sh!t together. And he is just a total d!ck.

Plenty of other US riders could have used a chance like that.

Then of course Vaughter's habit of dropping guys rather unceremoniously, and having a bad attitude towards guys he just feels aren't talented enough.

Just being the 'clean' team isn't enough to make everyone like you.

cheers, good points.

Danielson is an interesting case.
The part of his affidavit where he describes his fears for bloodtransfusions and why he stopped doing them is actually pretty compelling.
Then again, I don't see any reason why he would have stopped taking EPO.

 

[blackcat]

cheers, good points.

Danielson is an interesting case.
The part of his affidavit where he describes his fears for bloodtransfusions and why he stopped doing them is actually pretty compelling.
Then again, I don't see any reason why he would have stopped taking EPO.

But what happens when Crawf does the blood spinning for Tommy D when he was at Saturn? Crawf is on Betsy's Facebook

Crawf ftw!

#JV_jokes_inuit_fats

hey Betsy, I thought you were from balkan stock not inuit?

 

[sniper]

But what happens when Crawf does the blood spinning for Tommy D when he was at Saturn? Crawf is on Betsy's Facebook

Crawf ftw!

#JV_jokes_inuit_fats

hey Betsy, I thought you were from balkan stock not inuit?

Danielson? He must be bitter.
He could have won the 2011 TdF if we strip the proven dopers (F.schleck, Contador, Basso), the almost-proven dopers (Cunego), and the "you gotta be sh1tting me"-dopers (Voeckler, A.Schleck, Evans).

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Maybe instead of always trying to find an angle to attack Garmin with, you should actually check if what the guy is saying has any credence by your own logic.

1. Optum have Tom Zirbel on their roster, a guy who was all set to join Garmin until he tested positive. He finished 4th in the Worlds TT in 2009, the year he tested positive.

2. Optum have recruited about 6/7 former Garmin riders down through the years. Guys who were based in Girona whilst with Garmin. One of those is Phil Gaimon who is best buds with Tom Danielson.

3. They also have a few ex-Spidertech riders, Ryan Anderson and Will Routley on their roster. Where did Spidertech base themselves whilst in Europe? Yep, you guessed it, Girona!!

3. Just this season they have sent one of their guys Carter Jones to join Garmin.

4. Their roster also includes Bjorn Selander who rode for Trek-Livestrong/Radioshack and Guillame Boivin who just spent two seasons at Cannondale.

5. One of their DS is Eric Wohlberg who rode for Saturn during the Horner/Danielson/O'Neill era.

6. They had a guy, Sebastian Salas banned for missing anti-doping tests.

By your own silly joining-the-dots thinking, that makes them dirty as hell. Scoring own goals as always sniper.

For the record, I believe these guys are a genuine clean team. That has been the word on the grapevine for a long time, but then that is the same grapevine that I also hear Garmin are not running a doping program.

Wait. You think Routley is a doper? You make some interesting points, but you obviously don't know much about Will.

John Swanson

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Wait. You think Routley is a doper? You make some interesting points, but you obviously don't know much about Will.

John Swanson

Likewise Erker, Wohlberg and Anderson. I would stick my hand in the fire for the Symmetrics guys.

Regardless of TD, Gaimon is considered clean by pretty much everyone.

I do still have my doubts about the Zirbel story.

 

[pmcg76]

Wait. You think Routley is a doper? You make some interesting points, but you obviously don't know much about Will.

John Swanson

I did say I believe Optum are a genuinely clean team. No, I don't think Routley is a doper but sometimes you have to drop down to snipers level of intelligence.

He has claimed inumerable times the reason teams(primarly Garmin) are based in Girona is for the wonderful doping that happens there. Spidertech's European base was Girona, thus they had to be there for doping reasons.

Surely you noticed that rather than dismiss the idea, he actually embraced what I listed as some sort of proof of the doping connections with Optum.

 

[sniper]

Likewise Erker, Wohlberg and Anderson. I would stick my hand in the fire for the Symmetrics guys.

Regardless of TD, Gaimon is considered clean by pretty much everyone.

I do still have my doubts about the Zirbel story.

his public statements don't underpin him being clean (don't underpin him being dirty either, to be sure).
really, in one interview he speaks of how the riders that stayed clean during 'the EPO era' (whatever era that is) are his true heroes, in the other interview Danielson is his fav rider.
And stuff like

cycling is cleaning up fast

, when you know it isn't, that doesn't sound convincing.
He might be clean, but why put your hand in the fire for him?

His tattoo is nice, i know.
But again, apparently he has this group of buddies who detest everything about doping (the tattoo buddies), which is hard to reconcile with his respect for everything Garmin.
The whole Garmin crew, from top to bottom, represent the rewards that doping bring.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

But in the long run, in cycling plus other sports, are not sponsors will to take a hit in the short term. USPS managed the whispers away in the early 2000s. RADIO SHACK!!! well, you might devils advocate the question how RS are doing now? chapter 11? Festina came back the next year, werent their studies on that and how much positive publicity, or, the function of the scandal went on to be publicity which sold watches?

LaVieClaire/Look Tapie....


The one thing I see in this factor DQ, is why teams do some much of the Burson Marstellar narrative control, attempting to sell the clean myth. Garmin, Sky. And I dont think it is any coincidence, both from anglophone countries, who have some atavistic puritanism. I think it was Rhubroma who posted a great reply on the febrile doping narrative in America, and how it is bound to be viewed by continentals thru a continental lens. (and hypocrisy, grand hypocrisy).

You can only get sponsored if you are clean if i) you get traction, you get recognition, you are on the radar, there is a freekin radar, and ii) you can prove or sell yourself as clean.

well, ii) is as easy as G A R M I N Aretha Franklin respect!!! Or EPO Cheats Out!!! Lying bloody lying freekin hypocrite doper doping Paula Radcliffe. Say you are clean = simulcra = being clean by saying it.

saying it is the only thing that matters.

no actually, winning, getting cut-thru, getting traction and recognition + saying you are clean is what matters. even when you are not clean. Like Lance.

donating for Sysmex machines matters. Getting Iban Mayo busted cos you are for clean athletes matters. Controlling the media narrative matters.

Hold up Brah slow your roll. TheShack was in dire straits for a while before they decided to waist money on a cycling team.

A multicolored fish wrap here in the States had them on the business to watch for bankruptcy a few years before the cycling team.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hold up Brah slow your roll. TheShack was in dire straits for a while before they decided to waist money on a cycling team.

A multicolored fish wrap here in the States had them on the business to watch for bankruptcy a few years before the cycling team.

For the non-American reader, RS, once upon a time, was an electronics bits and pieces retailer as well as selling their own line of computers at rates much, much higher than Apple and PC clones.

Consumers changed and the Internet happened and they became essentially a mobile phone reseller. They have very many locations (thousands) and publicly traded, so, there was money to burn on bad decisions.

Personally, I thought they'd go chapter 7 and just shut down the whole thing. I'm not sure how they can reorganize as they are a poor fit for consumers right now.

 

[D-Queued]

For the non-American reader, RS, once upon a time, was an electronics bits and pieces retailer as well as selling their own line of computers at rates much, much higher than Apple and PC clones.

Consumers changed and the Internet happened and they became essentially a mobile phone reseller. They have very many locations (thousands) and publicly traded, so, there was money to burn on bad decisions.

Personally, I thought they'd go chapter 7 and just shut down the whole thing. I'm not sure how they can reorganize as they are a poor fit for consumers right now.

And, once upon a time before that, they were a leather crafts store selling kits, supplies and tools for making leather wallets, passport holders, etc.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

D1ck Smith?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

For the non-American reader, RS, once upon a time, was an electronics bits and pieces retailer as well as selling their own line of computers at rates much, much higher than Apple and PC clones.

Consumers changed and the Internet happened and they became essentially a mobile phone reseller. They have very many locations (thousands) and publicly traded, so, there was money to burn on bad decisions.

Personally, I thought they'd go chapter 7 and just shut down the whole thing. I'm not sure how they can reorganize as they are a poor fit for consumers right now.

(Off topic, but within the last day or two, they did file for bankruptcy. Sprint will take over many of their stores. No comeback 2.0)

 

[blackcat]

(Off topic, but within the last day or two, they did file for bankruptcy. Sprint will take over many of their stores. No comeback 2.0)

was it Weisel who got the money originally. his contacts?

arent they from Houston hq. Or Dallas? Or is it Austin originally and still the hq?

 

[sniper]

It's just not pretty, all this Vaughters-UCI love.

?I think (UCI?s) Francesca Rossi?s and Mario Zorzoli?s work has been excellent. My desire is that you should take those components, people like Rossi and Zorzoli, and separate them out from (the UCI),? added Vaughters. ?They shouldn?t be under the same roof.?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...da-managed-program_263968#7XCxChuX9wTg3eIq.99

On Saturday UCI Anti-doping manager Francesca Rossi and UCI Doctor Mario Zorzoli both rejected the Italian anti-doping prosecutor Ettore Torri's comments that doping is rife in cycling and defended the sport's reputation by revealing data from the UCI's Biological Passport programme.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-reveal-biological-passport-data-in-defence-of-cycling

Vaughters has been one of the early proponents of the so-called "biological passport" program...
...
"As a whole the race is clean," said Vaughters, who rode with Armstrong on the U.S. Postal Team in 1998 and 1999 before retiring in 2003. "I can't speak to every single athlete, but the probability of the Tour being won by a clean rider is much higher than it being won by a doped rider."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-reveal-biological-passport-data-in-defence-of-cycling