JV talks, sort of

[Cobblestones]

Its omertà because he doesn't come clean to this group? Get a grip.

He doesn't come clean to anybody.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Its omertà because he doesn't come clean to this group? Get a grip.

Nobody was suggesting that he come clean here. The suggestion was that he come clean. And I along with many think being called "kiddos" is a bit condescending, but it is a minor foible really. As was stated, Floyd and Tyler have been left hanging out there by themselves for awhile now. Excuse us for wanting more people to speak up.

 

[Race Radio]

He doesn't come clean to anybody.

I would not say that. He is pretty open to those that matter.

JV's strategy is pretty obvious, take the path that has the most impact. Given the way the Armstrong media woodchipper has chewed up Frankie, Betsy, Greg, and Mike it is an understandable strategy.

Working with USADA, directing team riders and staff to work openly and honestly, made a huge impact. Not just on the Armstrong case but the sport as a whole.

If/When he tells his story it will not be in a cycling forum but venue that has a broad reach and large impact. Ultimately his story alone is not that important unless it is used to drive change in the sport

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nobody was suggesting that he come clean here. The suggestion was that he come clean. And I along with many think being called "kiddos" is a bit condescending, but it is a minor foible really. As was stated, Floyd and Tyler have been left hanging out there by themselves for awhile now. Excuse us for wanting more people to speak up.

Here's something to ponder.
There is a big difference between FL & TH positions and JVs. TH & FL have already been sanctioned, their admissions confirmed their transgressions.
While any transgressions would be outside the SOL an admission could force USADA to open actions against him, thus revealing information they do not want out in the open yet.

Also, unlike FL & TH, JV is still involved in the sport - if he was ever to be sanctioned he could be sidelined from being involved in his own team. Many of the others are close to retirement, in essence JV could be the one who actually serves a punishment.

 

[Cobblestones]

If you can't speak out on what you know, yet are outspoken about cleanliness, you're a hypocrit in my book.
JV is part of the problem. It is his choice to be. His riders are winning GC's in a very dirty sport with a most accomodating world federation run by a dressed up primate.
JV passively threw Floyd and Tyler under the bus, by keeping his mouth shut. Being self serving, delaying his out own day of judgement. Letting mor and more of his own indiscretions expire first. There is no honor in that anymore than Riis admitting to the obvious.

He is still far from Riis. He is somewhere there way back with Ullrich.

 

[Race Radio]

He is still far from Riis. He is somewhere there way back with Ullrich.

Even without a public admission JV has had a far greater impact on clean sport then both those guys combined

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Here's something to ponder.
There is a big difference between FL & TH positions and JVs. TH & FL have already been sanctioned, their admissions confirmed their transgressions.
While any transgressions would be outside the SOL an admission could force USADA to open actions against him, thus revealing information they do not want out in the open yet.

Also, unlike FL & TH, JV is still involved in the sport - if he was ever to be sanctioned he could be sidelined from being involved in his own team. Many of the others are close to retirement, in essence JV could be the one who actually serves a punishment.

Here is something to ponder: If he is guilty of the same thing and has not been caught, why does he deserve to keep avoiding repercussions? I would suggest that FL and TH have suffered ACTUAL punishment...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Here is something to ponder: If he is guilty of the same thing and has not been caught, why does he deserve to keep avoiding repercussions? I would suggest that FL and TH have suffered ACTUAL punishment...

Oh, totally agree.
I was on about the other witnesses, who have not thus far been sanctioned, many of these will simply retire and in effect not serve a punishment.

Even though some may haved doped beyond SOL my view is that they should be sanctioned (& have a reduction for co-operation) - they knew at the time what they were doing, and while I have sympathy that they may not have wanted to dope, ultimately they choose to do so knowing there could be consequences.

 

[Cobblestones]

Even without a public admission JV has had a far greater impact on clean sport then both those guys combined

If JV had any impact on clean sport at all, I don't think it was much to write home about. How much transparency is there really in his team? Wigan's published values when he rode for Garmin looked pretty dodgy. But that is for a different thread.

So he encouraged his riders to cooperate with the late Federal investigation? That's a pretty low bar considering that a different stance would likely have brought himself in the crosshairs of the investigation.

It has been said here enough times. He tries to play both sides of the game. Clearly he has some success since there are quite a few defenders. On the other hand, his reluctance to come out of the closet is precisely what irritates me the most. You don't see much discussion of Hincapie here for instance, because he doesn't shoot his mouth off about 'clean cycling' at every opportunity. I've seen much of the same many times throughout my life. The gay scene in the 1980s was pretty much like that. It took many brave men to come out and proclaim proudly what they were. Also then there were others too timid, or happy to ride the coattails of braver men. When AIDS started to kill everybody, it again took many brave men to stand up to remove the stigma of the disease. And it is far from over. There is no marriage equality even in many countries of the 'Western' world. There is outright prosecution in most Islamic and African countries.

This post has become much more personal than I intended, but looking back in time on the fights and societal changes I have witnessed, I can assure you that it has never been the ones staying on the fence, the ones trying to play both sides, the ones riding the coattails of greater men, which brought progress with them. It requires men who risk everything, who speak up in the face of adversity, who confront the status quo, the lies of the establishment. JV is no such man.

 

[spalco]

Relax, kiddos. I am certain any action(or lack of) I take won't be met with approval from this group.

As I've said in statements galore over the past 2 yrs: Any and all questions from anti-doping authorities will be answered honestly. Period.

Not a whole lot more to be said.

With all due respect, that first sentence is not true, Mr. Vaughters.

Cooperating with the authorities is good, and better than what many others in your position have done, but at some point, don't we, as fans of the sport, deserve to hear the truth from someone who knows too?

There's plenty you could say and do that would find the full approval of most people in this forum, if at some point you're free to do that.

 

[knewcleardaze]

If JV had any impact on clean sport at all, I don't think it was much to write home about. How much transparency is there really in his team? Wigan's published values when he rode for Garmin looked pretty dodgy. But that is for a different thread.

So he encouraged his riders to cooperate with the late Federal investigation? That's a pretty low bar considering that a different stance would likely have brought himself in the crosshairs of the investigation.

It has been said here enough times. He tries to play both sides of the game. Clearly he has some success since there are quite a few defenders. On the other hand, his reluctance to come out of the closet is precisely what irritates me the most. You don't see much discussion of Hincapie here for instance, because he doesn't shoot his mouth off about 'clean cycling' at every opportunity. I've seen much of the same many times throughout my life. The gay scene in the 1980s was pretty much like that. It took many brave men to come out and proclaim proudly what they were. Also then there were others too timid, or happy to ride the coattails of braver men. When AIDS started to kill everybody, it again took many brave men to stand up to remove the stigma of the disease. And it is far from over. There is no marriage equality even in many countries of the 'Western' world. There is outright prosecution in most Islamic and African countries.

This post has become much more personal than I intended, but looking back in time on the fights and societal changes I have witnessed, I can assure you that it has never been the ones staying on the fence, the ones trying to play both sides, the ones riding the coattails of greater men, which brought progress with them. It requires men who risk everything, who speak up in the face of adversity, who confront the status quo, the lies of the establishment. JV is no such man.

Well said. Did you read the JV Twitter compilation? JV strikes me as a shady character, at best.

 

[JV1973]

totally. I wouldn't trust him to walk my dog.... I mean, i don't trust me to walk my own dog.

 

[mewmewmew13]

My opinion is that now would be the wrong time to make any admission. It could have the potential to jeopardize the USADA case. My view has always been that as long as he has been honest with USADA, Feds etc then thats all fine with me.

Which brings us back to why make any comment in public at all - i don't get the dangling of snippets of information on twitter or here and then complaining when people discuss it.

This sums up my feelings also.
I guess the next few weeks may reveal more....

of more consternation to me is why hardly one peep out of the entire peloton.
Yes, I know the standard answer but really.....?

 

[Race Radio]

If JV had any impact on clean sport at all, I don't think it was much to write home about. How much transparency is there really in his team? Wigan's published values when he rode for Garmin looked pretty dodgy. But that is for a different thread.

So he encouraged his riders to cooperate with the late Federal investigation? That's a pretty low bar considering that a different stance would likely have brought himself in the crosshairs of the investigation.

It has been said here enough times. He tries to play both sides of the game. Clearly he has some success since there are quite a few defenders. On the other hand, his reluctance to come out of the closet is precisely what irritates me the most. You don't see much discussion of Hincapie here for instance, because he doesn't shoot his mouth off about 'clean cycling' at every opportunity. I've seen much of the same many times throughout my life. The gay scene in the 1980s was pretty much like that. It took many brave men to come out and proclaim proudly what they were. Also then there were others too timid, or happy to ride the coattails of braver men. When AIDS started to kill everybody, it again took many brave men to stand up to remove the stigma of the disease. And it is far from over. There is no marriage equality even in many countries of the 'Western' world. There is outright prosecution in most Islamic and African countries.

This post has become much more personal than I intended, but looking back in time on the fights and societal changes I have witnessed, I can assure you that it has never been the ones staying on the fence, the ones trying to play both sides, the ones riding the coattails of greater men, which brought progress with them. It requires men who risk everything, who speak up in the face of adversity, who confront the status quo, the lies of the establishment. JV is no such man.

You are moving from silly to ridiculous.

Save this post. Check back in 2 years and see if you feel the same.

 

[Poursuivant]

I really dont think he is shady. He strikes me as a man who Has made mistakes in the past and his conscience got the better of him and has led him to run a clean team. I might be wrong but he always comes across as a nice feller to me.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Still whether the power gain from blood boosting is closer to 50% or 100% of the percentual increase in Hb mass.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I really dont think he is shady. He strikes me as a man who Has made mistakes in the past and his conscience got the better of him and has led him to run a clean team. I might be wrong but he always comes across as a nice feller to me.

I just wish he'd stop telling us silly lies like doping doesn't have any significant performance enhancing effect in the bio-passport era. That's just insulting.

 

[JV1973]

What's insulting is a self righteous knucklehead having a meltdown because I didn't answer his question quickly enough.

So, here's your answer: depends on the physiology. No matter what, the relationship between hb and o2 consumption is linear. More recent thoughts lean towards a 50% correlation. Older ones lean towards 100%. I would say it is very difficult to gain beyond a 10% increase in LT power by increasing hb mass. Why? limitations in myoglobin and 02 transport due to red cell density getting too high and being inefficient.

Happy now?

 

[Benotti69]

totally. I wouldn't trust him to walk my dog.... I mean, i don't trust me to walk my own dog.

Some of us dont trust you to run a clean team in pro cycling, never mind walk anything.

 

[ElChingon]

What's insulting is a self righteous knucklehead having a meltdown because I didn't answer his question quickly enough.

So, here's your answer: depends on the physiology. No matter what, the relationship between hb and o2 consumption is linear. More recent thoughts lean towards a 50% correlation. Older ones lean towards 100%. I would say it is very difficult to gain beyond a 10% increase in LT power by increasing hb mass. Why? limitations in myoglobin and 02 transport due to red cell density getting too high and being inefficient.

Happy now?

Go to a bar buy two beers and talk to the one you're not drinking, I think it will listen.

Do the crime do the time, is what everyone is saying.

 

[hrotha]

totally. I wouldn't trust him to walk my dog.... I mean, i don't trust me to walk my own dog.

One question, JV. You talk to USADA and/or WADA, and that's fine. You've dropped enough hints for people like us to have a decent understanding of what was going on.

But do you talk to your riders? The younger ones, in particular. Do you explain to them where you come from and what Slipstream's whole reason d'être is supposed to be (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was setting up a team where a rider would never be pressured to dope or have to face the dilemma of doping)? Do they know the whole story?

Today, Andrew Talansky (one of my favourite young guns, by the way; he's earning me some very needed CQ Ranking points) just won the Tour de l'Ain. When USADA made their move, Talansky said this. Why would he claim there's no evidence? Did you give him the talk and that's why he deleted those tweets? But did he not know the story before he posted that?

 

[JV1973]

On that note, don't underestimate the significance of a 10% increase in power at LT... just add 10% on to Pantani's record time up l'alpe. Well, not quite 10%, due to some air resistance, maybe like 9%...

37:30 mins + 9% = 41:30... roughly? right? (don't have a calculator w me)

That's a big difference, kiddos.

 

[JV1973]

One question, JV. You talk to USADA and/or WADA, and that's fine. You've dropped enough hints for people like us to have a decent understanding of what was going on.

But do you talk to your riders? The younger ones, in particular. Do you explain to them where you come from and what Slipstream's whole reason d'être is supposed to be (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was setting up a team where a rider would never be pressured to dope or have to face the dilemma of doping)? Do they know the whole story?

Today, Andrew Talansky (one of my favourite young guns, by the way; he's earning me some very needed CQ Ranking points) just won the Tour de l'Ain. When USADA made their move, Talansky said this. Why would he claim there's no evidence? Did you give him the talk and that's why he deleted those tweets? But did he not know the story before he posted that?

Now THIS is a damn good question! Thank you.

Yes, I do talk to all of my riders very honestly when it comes to my past. And I gave Andrew a freecking earful after that comment. You have to remember, they have their own minds, own opinions, and I don't expect them to be my puppets.

I think Andrew is just tired of cycling past trumping cycling present for headlines. He expressed that the wrong way, he knows that now, but he's learning. He's a stubborn *** hole. But that's just the reason he'll be an excellent rider one day.

 

[JV1973]

Some of us dont trust you to run a clean team in pro cycling, never mind walk anything.

Yes, I agree, I wouldn't trust me with anything. I am fundamentally evil. And I forget all the other things in addition to that. I'm sure you can list them.

 

[roundabout]

Ok, this is the clinic and I might as well get it off my chest.

Bah, let's try indirectly first.

There's one rider at Garmin currently who I very much believe had been up to no good at his previous team (not US Postal or CSC). He seems to be back to a more human level now though.

So anyways, are there certain people who are, let's say more of a risk than others? Any indications that they (if they exist of course) might be tempted to go back to what they are used to?