JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

Frankly, the attempt to link every single doping story to JV is getting tiresome.

Anyway, JV, since you're here: have you seen Rasmussen's blood values? What do you make of them? Even to my totally untrained eye his 2007 TdF values look suspicious as hell, but the rest look a lot less clear-cut.

They are the the most suspicious values I've ever sen published. It's ironic because back then he published them to prove his innocence. "look, nothing's even close to 50!!!" uhhhhh... yeah, but you went from 39 to 46 during a GT....Yikes.

 

[sniper]

Ok, I'm going to refrain myself from calling you a low functioning Cretin. But that's out of love, not more.

2 facts:

Rasmussen would have never been tested in the bio passport system ever, why?

1. Bio-pass started in 2008 (not 2005-2006)

2. He was on a continental team after 2007. Conti teams don't get tested w bio-pass system.

before you start swinging the self righteous "we know better" blade, you might want to research the topic. just a bit.

xoxo, JV

it's about the fact (or admittedly: assumption) that Chicken's 2005/6 bloodvalues would never would have been flagged by the passport.

 

[Hematide]

They don't get tested with Bio-Passport... just to clarify.

So strange that he was added to the biological passport program in 2010 then.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3116/Michael-Rasmussen-added-to-Biological-Passport-programme.aspx

 

[neineinei]

Rasmus Damsgaard said in 2007 (the day after Rasmussen released his blood values) that the data from TdF 2007 was indicating blood doping.

http://translate.google.com/transla...yheder/rasmus_damsgaard_tyder_paa_bloddoping/

According to Rasmus Damsgaard it is unnatural that a rider's hemoglobin level increases during a stage race like the Tour de France. Michael Rasmussen's hemoglobin level was in London at 13.3, while it 12 days later it had risen to 14.2, and on the day of rest was again increased slightly to 14.4.

 

[sniper]

Ok, I'm going to refrain myself from calling you a low functioning Cretin. But that's out of love, not more.

2 facts:

Rasmussen would have never been tested in the bio passport system ever, why?

1. Bio-pass started in 2008 (not 2005-2006)

2. He was on a continental team after 2007. Conti teams don't get tested w bio-pass system.

before you start swinging the self righteous "we know better" blade, you might want to research the topic. just a bit.

xoxo, JV

come on.
obviously my suggestion was not that there was a non-effective BP in place in 2005/6 but that his values would not have flagged anything if there were a BP in place. (see hrotha's post and your comment on it.)

But a couple of issues remain that you seem unwilling to talk about openly:
How would you assess the Leinders-Sky relationship in the light of the new Rabo revelations, and how would you reassess your own comments in the press vouching for Sky being clean?

What do you make of Lance's comments about 2009/10, and about Gripper's reaffirming those comments? How incorruptable is she?

 

[hrotha]

They are the the most suspicious values I've ever sen published. It's ironic because back then he published them to prove his innocence. "look, nothing's even close to 50!!!" uhhhhh... yeah, but you went from 39 to 46 during a GT....Yikes.

Yeah, that spike is pretty obvious, but the rest of his 2005-2007 values aren't that blatant, are they? His hematocrit remains remarkably stable for the Giro and Tour in 2005 and 2006, though, which I guess would raise many an eyebrow. I honestly have no idea about this, so any kind of in-depth analysis would be welcome, with special emphasis on how those values would have been viewed by the BP panel.

 

[Netserk]

Hi JV

What do you think about the routes for this years GTs?

 

[sniper]

The passport wasn't introduced until 2008..

it's about whether his values would or would not have been flagged if there were a BP, but of course you knew that already.

 

[Bumeington]

Gripper says she believes Lance.

err... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anne-gripper-describes-armstrong-as-a-pathological-liar

They are the the most suspicious values I've ever sen published. It's ironic because back then he published them to prove his innocence. "look, nothing's even close to 50!!!" uhhhhh... yeah, but you went from 39 to 46 during a GT....Yikes.

Am I looking at the right thing here? https://twitter.com/mrconde/status/297318388223594497/photo/1

Are there any retics data for MR? To be fair to sniper, the 2005-6 comment is that surely those values from 2005-6 (which are influenced by doping) wouldn't flag the passport now, which is an assumption from him obviously. It would be nice to have an opinion from JV on this though, can you see anything obviously amiss in the 2005-6 values? Is the flat-lining in 2005 suspicious. Was Rasmussen just diluting his blood all the time?

 

[GJB123]

nice nuanced comment

But such a very true comment.

you know that my beef is not with jv but with the "cycling is so much cleaner now" movement which imo jeopardizes (or at least slows down) currents attempts to change cycling. the movement is designed to throw mud into the eyes of the fans.
i can't help it that jv is the frontrunner of that movement. (see walsh's comments)

Well you could have fooled me.

 

[roundabout]

Ooh, Abano Terme. Nice place. Respect to the Chicken.

2005 values are the most interesting.

Maybe the 2003 Vuelta as well, but I doubt that they are available.

 

[GJB123]

nice nuanced comment

But such a very true comment nevertheless.

you know that my beef is not with jv but with the "cycling is so much cleaner now" movement which imo jeopardizes (or at least slows down) currents attempts to change cycling. the movement is designed to throw mud into the eyes of the fans.
i can't help it that jv is the frontrunner of that movement. (see walsh's comments)

Well you could have fooled me.

 

[sniper]

err... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anne-gripper-describes-armstrong-as-a-pathological-liar

Obviously I meant to say Gripper believes Lance was clean in 2009. From the article you linked:

Former head of UCI anti-doping[Gripper] claims he [Lance]was clean in 2009

How can she seriously believe that? Tygart's specialists came to quite a different conclusion. JV once said Gripper is incorruptable. I wonder what JV makes of her comments on Lance, and generally what JV himself thinks of LAnce's 2009/10 performances.

 

[sniper]

But such a very true comment nevertheless.
Well you could have fooled me.

at most I have a beef with a certain poster JV1973 who keeps insulting everybody who raises concerns about Jonathan Vaughters' cycling-is-somuch-cleaner-message.

 

[sniper]

But such a very true comment nevertheless.
Well you could have fooled me.

could you refrain from posting superfluous comments? we're having JV in the house right now and a lot of well-meant questions. such posts make it all a bit messy and thus merely derail what could otherwise become an interesting conversation. thanks in advance.

 

[GJB123]

could you refrain from posting superfluous comments? we're having JV in the house right now and a lot of well-meant questions. such posts make it all a bit messy and thus merely derail what could otherwise become an interesting conversation. thanks in advance.

Well if you would keep it limited to well-meant questions instead of your usual assumptions, misrepresentations and innuendo we might indeed have a chance of having an interesting conversation. However somehow when you are around and the V-word is mentioned an interesting conversation is usually the last thing one tends find here.

 

[sniper]

Well if you would keep it limited to well-meant questions instead of your usual assumptions, misrepresentations and innuendo we might indeed have a chance of having an interesting conversation. However somehow when you are around and the V-word is mentioned an interesting conversation is usually the last thing one tends find here.

ffs, dude.
mods, i'd be thankful if the superflluous exchange between me and GBJ be removed.

 

[pmcg76]

So strange that he was added to the biological passport program in 2010 then.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3116/Michael-Rasmussen-added-to-Biological-Passport-programme.aspx

Many thanks for this. Last night I pointed out that continental teams were not part of the BP and thus were not tested. Another poster then added a link showing Rasmussen was in the 2012 testing pool so we didn't really understand why that was. This piece of news clears that up.

 

[ChrisE]

Well if you would keep it limited to well-meant questions instead of your usual assumptions, misrepresentations and innuendo we might indeed have a chance of having an interesting conversation. However somehow when you are around and the V-word is mentioned an interesting conversation is usually the last thing one tends find here.

Sniper asked about Gripper. Why don't you sit back and chill out while we watch glaciers slide down mountains, waiting for JV's response to this jamming question?

 

[JV1973]

nice nuanced comment

you know that my beef is not with jv but with the "cycling is so much cleaner now" movement which imo jeopardizes (or at least slows down) currents attempts to change cycling. the movement is designed to throw mud into the eyes of the fans.
i can't help it that jv is the frontrunner of that movement. (see walsh's comments)

I'm not throwing mud in anyone's eyes. The data is available for everyone to see. My opinion, looking at the data (median hb, climbing speeds, and median retic stability) lead me to believe that racing is cleaner. It's that simple.

You don't have to agree. I don't care. I'm just saying that is my interpretation.

And if folks are doping, it isn't helping them very much (per climbing speed data), so what do I care? If I think a young talented rider can win clean and won't be put in the "you'll need to dope to win or place" position, then frankly I don't care if some moron is injecting monkey placenta into his brain thinking it'll help. If it doesn't significantly destabilize the opportunities highly talented and clean riders have, I'm not going to go ape**** about it. Waste.

What's not a waste of energy is making sure we don't enter another period where the doping methods outstrip large differences in talent. That is when the whole thing goes sideways.

Also, I'm not going to lie and say "dammit, it's all dirty!! Especially those evil feckers at Sky!!".... I don't believe that. Why would I say it? Just to feel good about myself?

As for Walsh, I talk to David quite a bit, and I think he is of the same opinion. At least in our discussions he seems fairly convince by the data. But then, it's his job to always be a bit on guard. And I'm sure you can find some sound byte that shows he's suspect. But sound bytes you get to read in the press don't equal knowing someone for a decade and speaking with them regularly.

That's the thing, you guys try to place me at odds with Kimmage and Walsh or whatever. These people have stayed in my guest room and had BBQ ribs at my dinner table. And we debate this stuff, but all in good humor. I listen to them, they listen to me. It's constructive. Which is something you could aim for.


I first had dinner with David in 2003. And admitted my whole story to him around that time as well. He kept it private, which was nice of him... But anyway, just saying', I was hang in with Walsh before it was what all the cool kids wanted to do.

I know I'm really annoying you with that last paragraph. It's intentional.

JV

 

[JV1973]

Obviously I meant to say Gripper believes Lance was clean in 2009. From the article you linked:

How can she seriously believe that? Tygart's specialists came to quite a different conclusion. JV once said Gripper is incorruptable. I wonder what JV makes of her comments on Lance, and generally what JV himself thinks of LAnce's 2009/10 performances.

I think Lance was pretty slow in 2009-2010. Relative to his old self. I already said that in an interview with Jeremy Whittle at the time. And Lance got really ****ed. I think I had over 1000 nasty twitters from Lance-o-maniacs. Who now all hate him. Whichever way the wind blows....

As for Gripper and Tygart. Neither are hematologists. I would like to hear from the people that actually analyzed the data. Do I believe Anne is incorruptible? Yes. Just my belief. Not more.

Would be interesting to hear the reasons from the actual data analysts.

 

[Benotti69]

I first had dinner with David in 2003. And admitted my whole story to him around that time as well. He kept it private, which was nice of him... But anyway, just saying', I was hang in with Walsh before it was what all the cool kids wanted to do.

I know I'm really annoying you with that last paragraph. It's intentional.

JV

Name caller and now name dropper to add to your list of abilities.....cycling will miss you when that big faceless corp comes calling

So you didn't think the Vuelta was dirty, watching Valverde climbing with Contador and JRod?

As if the passport is actually working considering McQuaid is in charge!

And you thought Sky doing a USPS was clean!

What is the bench mark for clean cycling? LeMonds numbers? But only LeMond and a few could reach those numbers clean. Who is the LeMond of 2012. Wiggins? No way.Contador, but was he ever clean?

 

[131313]

I think Lance was pretty slow in 2009-2010. Relative to his old self. I already said that in an interview with Jeremy Whittle at the time. And Lance got really ****ed. I think I had over 1000 nasty twitters from Lance-o-maniacs. Who now all hate him. Whichever way the wind blows....

Do you think a 20% increase in sustainable power is possible in 5 weeks without doping, if the rider was previously training consistently, i.e. wasn't injured or sick? Because between Gila and the TDSuisse, that's roughly the improvement Armstrong made in 2010.

I've been around endurance sport most of my life and I have to say I've never seen a pupa to butterfly transformation like that before. Have you?

 

[sniper]

I'm not throwing mud in anyone's eyes. The data is available for everyone to see. My opinion, looking at the data (median hb, climbing speeds, and median retic stability) lead me to believe that racing is cleaner. It's that simple.
...

thanks many for the elaborate response. appreciate it.
To be sure, I'm certainly not claiming you throw mud. The movement as a whole, however, I feel is throwing sand in the eyes of the fans. Pat is taking credit for the rapidly growing message that cycling is now so much cleaner. That's odd, to say the very least. Do you honestly think cycling can move forward with Pat in charge?

Also, some of the things you say (or have said) have the clear effect of reducing investigative journalism (case in point: Walsh stating Sky are clean, whereas he should be asking the hard questions wrt Leinders and USPS-like trains).

 

[Viking]

And we debate this stuff, but all in good humor. I listen to them, they listen to me. It's constructive. Which is something you could aim for.

On the internet? You can't be serious.