JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

Due to error, or due to actual changes in new blood cell %? If due to changes in new blood cell %, does that "bounce" occur within same-day readings, for a rider doing a TT to win a GT, given neither of the other parameters changed AT ALL?

Did the team owners know their riders had all tested higher than usual at the start of the Giro, or just their team medics?

You said this in 2010: http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...he-tour-of-california-and-win-it-clean_117464



Is it still true today, or did your willingness to be placed under more scrutiny only apply to that one race?

Would you prefer I not repeat the questions I have asked, and you still have not answered?

Wait! sorry! missed the retic question. I have no idea why retics would bounce a bit before and after the final TT. We could hypothesize that hypoxia created due to the effort of the TT caused some retics to show up. It could also just be the pulsitile nature of all human hormones... it could be a lot of things.

I don't know.

What I do know is that it would do nothing for performance to have a few more retics, short term, so we can eliminate a doping technique from the possible explanations.

 

[the big ring]

Wait! sorry! missed the retic question. I have no idea why retics would bounce a bit before and after the final TT. We could hypothesize that hypoxia created due to the effort of the TT caused some retics to show up. It could also just be the pulsitile nature of all human hormones... it could be a lot of things.
.

Thanks for the theories.

Struggling to see a 27% change as a "bit".

 

[the big ring]

We could hypothesize that hypoxia created due to the effort of the TT caused some retics to show up.

Just to clarify: hypoxia "stimulates the body to increase erythropoiesis as a corrective reaction".

Are you suggesting that in the space of 34 minutes, Ryder managed to induce sufficient hypoxia to stimulate extra EPO and that the EPO managed to produce 27% more reticulytes by the time he was tested post-stage? ie probably an hour at most?

 

[fepate]

Just to clarify: hypoxia "stimulates the body to increase erythropoiesis as a corrective reaction".

Are you suggesting that in the space of 34 minutes, Ryder managed to induce sufficient hypoxia to stimulate extra EPO and that the EPO managed to produce 25% more reticulytes by the time he was tested post-stage? ie probably an hour at most?

That's it! Garmin don't use synthetic EPO, they hold their breath between rides. Are nose plugs on the WADA list?

 

[the big ring]

That's it! Garmin don't use synthetic EPO, they hold their breath between rides. Are nose plugs on the WADA list?

Not sure if you're having a dig at me, but I have read the following with interest: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/blood-doping-1120

A newer technique involves inducing an apparent oxygen deficiency (hypoxia), which stimulates the body to increase erythropoiesis as a corrective reaction. Researchers have already suggested that gene therapy targeting the ‘hypoxia inducible factor pathway’ may in future be an alternative to traditional blood doping for athletes in search of a competitive edge.

Meanwhile, this effect can already be achieved by taking cobalt chloride, a compound traditionally used to treat anaemia, and which is a well- established chemical inducer of hypoxia-like responses, including erythropoiesis.
...
However, they point out that testing for cobalt during competition would involve a great deal of wasted effort since the compound is metabolised very rapidly and is eliminated from the body within 24 hours of ingestion

 

[fepate]

Not sure if you're having a dig at me...

No, I was being silly and taking JV's mention of hypoxia some sort of hint.

 

[Argyle_Fan]

I am removing numerous of my uninformed comments.

 

[rata de sentina]

Thanks for the theories.

Struggling to see a 27% change as a "bit".

Could be sample collection and storage effect if both samples were analysed at the same time (seems likely) depends on time between samples but this is within realm of possibility as suggested by Banfi (Sports Med. 2008;38:187). This also consistent with lower reading in 1st sample as retics decline in storage. So might not be a "real" fluctuation.

 

[the big ring]

Could be sample collection and storage effect if both samples were analysed at the same time (seems likely) depends on time between samples but this is within realm of possibility as suggested by Banfi (Sports Med. 2008;38:187). This also consistent with lower reading in 1st sample as retics decline in storage. So might not be a "real" fluctuation.

Is that, "lab error"?

 

[ToreBear]

Will do!!

btw - I hunt elk too.

Good night all.

Here is a link explaining the use of the ignore feature if you find it difficult to automatically ignore posts:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=5443


And you should learn to type. These days it's an essential part of life. It's a skill your kids will need too.

Here is a link to a list of free typing software that helps you learn:
http://www.typingstudy.com/list_of_free_touch_typing_software_and_online_resources

This one looks nice, it even has graphs so you can track your performance improvements!
http://www.rapidtyping.com/typing-tutor.html

Once you get started, it only takes a few hours before your fingers know what to do. Then following the technique while doing your writing you will become more and more adept and it becomes automatic.



By the way, do you have any links to more blood passport examples? It would be nice to see what a super doped up BB user would look like, so we have something to compare to.

 

[simoni]

2. I think you vastly underestimate the political strain I have put my team under by even taking the position we have, which you deem "not good enough"... I cannot destroy a 100+ person organization due to being over zealous.

This is a key point when judging what goes on. I recall criticism of Millar when he didn't call out Armstrong in his book. While he still needs to make a living that just wasn't going to happen.

In Vaughters' case many more people are potentially affected by what he chooses to do.

The real world is grey and its not going to become black and white in one go.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Is that, "lab error"?

Pulled out 'the book' on a Coulter STKS analyzer (A premium analyzer designed for large labs)

Precision on ret% at normal levels (average of 1.18% from 31 replicates of the same sample) was CV 8.2 and a stddev of 0.10. (at higher levels of ret% the variation gets larger)

Take the ~1.5% average from the Giro numbers and 1.74 to 1.34 are both within 2 std deviations of that mean. (using the Coulter std dev, other instruments will vary)

Not statistically different.

Additionally, they show later in the book about ret% falling on sample storage (Drop in 24 hours from 2.4% to 1.9%) - obviously a different sample used in this case.

 

[JV1973]

Pulled out 'the book' on a Coulter STKS analyzer (A premium analyzer designed for large labs)

Precision on ret% at normal levels (average of 1.18% from 31 replicates of the same sample) was CV 8.2 and a stddev of 0.10. (at higher levels of ret% the variation gets larger)

Take the ~1.5% average from the Giro numbers and 1.74 to 1.34 are both within 2 std deviations of that mean. (using the Coulter std dev, other instruments will vary)

Not statistically different.

Additionally, they show later in the book about ret% falling on sample storage (Drop in 24 hours from 2.4% to 1.9%) - obviously a different sample used in this case.

Coulter? That's very 1999. Not what is used now. And, yes, storage issues are the main problem, not calibration issues.

 

[JV1973]

Is that, "lab error"?

Big Ring, Ok, let me use logic on you: Retics are immature red cells that carry very little hb or o2. So, there is not a short term advantage to having more retics. So, my question to you is: What doping reason can you give for increased retics over a 6 hour period on the last day of a GT?

I cannot figure one out.

I can't give you around a dozen natural explanations, but I can't tell you which one is correct.

 

[JV1973]

Could be sample collection and storage effect if both samples were analysed at the same time (seems likely) depends on time between samples but this is within realm of possibility as suggested by Banfi (Sports Med. 2008;38:187). This also consistent with lower reading in 1st sample as retics decline in storage. So might not be a "real" fluctuation.

Sample storage is the primary issue with passport testing. remember, these samples are tested in Lausanne, not on site. So, to get from Milan to Lausanne, there is travel involved. Along with the time spent gathering other samples, etc etc etc. This isn't to say you can't identify trends, even with samples that have been mishandled a bit. You can, it just requires more art than science.

 

[JV1973]

Just to clarify: hypoxia "stimulates the body to increase erythropoiesis as a corrective reaction".

Are you suggesting that in the space of 34 minutes, Ryder managed to induce sufficient hypoxia to stimulate extra EPO and that the EPO managed to produce 27% more reticulytes by the time he was tested post-stage? ie probably an hour at most?

When a sample is "pre" race, its usually at around 7am. Post race would have been 5-6 PM... So, 11 hours difference. I don't know if hypoxia could be it, but it's a possibility. Another possibility is that due to the extreme stage up to the Stelvio the day before, the body was ramping up, as there was some cell destruction/hypoxia. There are many theories. I don't know which one is correct.

I do know increased retics in this amount would provide zero short term performance gain, so I can logically rule intentional manipulation out.

 

[JV1973]

Big Ring, Ok, let me use logic on you: Retics are immature red cells that carry very little hb or o2. So, there is not a short term advantage to having more retics. So, my question to you is: What doping reason can you give for increased retics over a 6 hour period on the last day of a GT?

I cannot figure one out.

I can't give you around a dozen natural explanations, but I can't tell you which one is correct.

Sorry "CAN" give you a dozen natural explanations.

 

[JV1973]

Just to clarify: hypoxia "stimulates the body to increase erythropoiesis as a corrective reaction".

Are you suggesting that in the space of 34 minutes, Ryder managed to induce sufficient hypoxia to stimulate extra EPO and that the EPO managed to produce 27% more reticulytes by the time he was tested post-stage? ie probably an hour at most?

Let me even try this from another angle: The UCI does pre and post on a key stage like this to check and see if a blood bag hasn't been put in sometime after the AM test. So, let's image that were the case, here is what you'd likely see, even with some plasma manipulation:

AM 43.4 hct
14.1 hb
retics:1.34 (about right, I think? going by memory, please look at pattern)


PM 44.9 hct
15.0 hb
retics: .52


This type of profile would trip the alarm bells. Retics are sensitive and easily make large moves with extra red cells. And very unstable and unpredictable, even with attempts at manipulation back to norm.

Ryder's profile shows the exact opposite of this type of profile, leaving my confident in my athlete.

 

[the asian]

JV, Non doping question if you don't mind.

Currently riders who transfer to teams carry their full World Tour points to their new team .
This has led to some riders who indicate they are are going to transfer next season being left out of WT races. (I do remember Hushovd with your Team, and presently Fuglsang's situation with Astana).
I don't blame the Teams though, I understand their point.

This had led to many cash rich teams buying riders with WT points and leaving many smaller budgeted teams with a disadvantage.
Euskatel are going to change their long standing policy of not recruiting Basque Riders due to this fact.

I aslo understand that under the current system, it would make it easier for new teams to be formed.


Do you think the current system is fair? or are there any acceptable changes which can be made (maybe transferring 50% of points with the rider and leaving 50% with the old team)

JV, It's not doping related, but can you give your thoughts?

 

[JV1973]

JV, It's not doping related, but can you give your thoughts?

I could go on for pages on this one. the whole system is **** and encourages instability, unfair practices, and unethical behavior. I think it's **** that Eukaltel have had to go against the whole precept of the team so they can acquire points.

50/50 distribution is one way, but it's a short term fix.

 

[the asian]

I could go on for pages on this one. the whole system is **** and encourages instability, unfair practices, and unethical behavior. I think it's **** that Eukaltel have had to go against the whole precept of the team so they can acquire points.

50/50 distribution is one way, but it's a short term fix.

Appreciate your response.

What are the suggestions to fix it? In short.

 

[python]

jv, here’s a question that bothered me for a while. Would appreciate if you shed some light….

ashenden once mentioned that he was surprised to learn from floyd (as late as 2010) that micro dosing epo directly into a vein was an effective epo test beater. (i do have a fairly good background in dope testing and perfectly understand why). tyler in his book mentioned that he was using the method as early as 2001 and, correct me if I am wrong, in your nyt article you mentioned using the method as early as 2002.

My question is, given that ashenden’s surprise was genuine, and i do not assume it was not, almost a decade lag in the understanding of the straight-forward cheating method seem mind-boggling.

Would this example not be possible under today’s testing reality ?

thanks in advance !

 

[hrotha]

I honestly think the problem is we've seen too few blood profiles. We can only work with what we've been given. No one would release particularly suspicious blood values willingly (well, there's Armstrong; but JV is smarter than that). I think what releasing Hesjedal's values did was show howing complex blood profiles can be, how every single profile, if done properly, will eventually show this or that value that could merit closer examination even if the overall picture is reassuring.

Many forumers here are self-educated people who have learned a lot about the theoretical aspects of hematology and the biological passport, but they lack the practical experience of analyzing data because few data sets are available to them. Usually, when teams oppose releasing their blood values it's because they claim they will be misinterpreted, but JV, you have now released the values of 4 of your riders, so it would seem those muddy waters aren't a complete turn-off for you. Releasing the data of his whole squad would help give us a bigger data set and a broader context.

I can see problems with that, though. You said you wouldn't publish dodgy profiles, you'd just fire the riders involved. Can you literally and legally fire them even if there's no biological passport case against them, or do you mean more like sidelining them and not extending their contracts? I'm not sure how the Lowe situation was resolved, contract-wise. Anyway, my point is you couldn't release the data of the whole squad except for the suspicious guys, as that would set all sorts of alarms off. So it's either the whole squad, hypothetical dodgy people included (which is not a possibility according to what you said), or some cherry-picked profiles, which is what we're getting. The latter will always make some people suspicious, but the real problem is not that we don't have more profiles of Garmin riders to compare, but that we don't have more profiles, period. Other teams could get on board with this, too. I don't know if they don't do it because the people running those teams have an ancient mentality where being open is not even an option, or because they're actually dodgy.

I don't see other teams doing it, so we can only ask you to do even more. It's a bit unfair, but in a way you're all we have.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Coulter? That's very 1999. Not what is used now. And, yes, storage issues are the main problem, not calibration issues.

Yeah Its what I happened to have access to.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah Its what I happened to have access to.

Be careful you don't test positive.

Dave.