JV talks, sort of

[Runitout]

I recognize that sh!t happens, mistakes get made, and people learn from them. I also recognize that most situations like this are caused by both parties to the disagreement.

It is telling that JV admits that he made mistakes and would have handled the situation differently while in interviews Lowe uses ridiculous logic to blame everyone but himself. His latest spiteful interview takes the biscuit. He insinuates that because team members doped in years past, they were somehow incapable of giving him a training plan that was suitable for riders who are not doping. The obvious follow-through in that logic is that the rest of the riders, who presumably would have received the same training schedules as Lowe, must be doping. Yet he does not allege that, so it is obvious that he is using baseless doping issues as a means to attack his former team. This is similar to him whinging about seeing Del Moral but at the same time denying that Del Moral did anything to him.

Depends on who was coaching them. I think only a few of the riders lived in Valencia, whereas most where in Girona. I think White lived in Valencia.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You'll relentllessly argue anything and doubly so, when you can suck up to JV.

Let me dismantle your nonsense.

Looking forward to it.....

You do realize JV was anonymous in the 2006 NYT article? He said something about being one of the cool kids. Was that the extent of his statements to USADA and what he freely admits on Twitter and here. So to say he hasn't evolved since 2006 is completely idiotic. Now he speaks freely. Did the story change? No, the last time JV rode with Armstrong was 1999. He was doping before he was ever on USPS as was recently made public.

.....so when are you going to dismantle my nonsense?

This is very simple, JVs story was the same in 2006, what changed was that Armstrong was finally exposed.

I also didn't "make up" anything and for you to suggest I did is a lie.

People like me? You mean people who realize that it's always a good time to tell the truth and people who wouldn't leave Betsy, Emma, Greg LeMond and Mike Anderson twisting in the wind, before they came out of hiding?

I pay very close attention to what JV says and while he does a lot of good, he also had previously done a lot of equivocating. If you can't see that you're blind.

He article (with the exception of what I noted, was just more self justification which he has already done with his NYT opinion piece.

Keep being a JV fanboy and I'll keep an open mind regarding what he says.

Ya, I am sure JV thinks I am a great fanboy particularly as it was me that started a thread 2 years ago asking why he would not come clean on his own past.

And that's why I now understand JVs position. He admitted he had his confession written for years - but he had to wait until Armstrong and his mob were declawed before he could finally make it public.
I always knew Armstrong was vindictive but even I had underestimated how much so until the full extent of his fraud was exposed.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It is telling that JV admits that he made mistakes and would have handled the situation differently while in interviews Lowe uses ridiculous logic to blame everyone but himself. His latest spiteful interview takes the biscuit. He insinuates that because team members doped in years past, they were somehow incapable of giving him a training plan that was suitable for riders who are not doping. The obvious follow-through in that logic is that the rest of the riders, who presumably would have received the same training schedules as Lowe, must be doping. Yet he does not allege that, so it is obvious that he is using baseless doping issues as a means to attack his former team. This is similar to him whinging about seeing Del Moral but at the same time denying that Del Moral did anything to him.

Training and racing schedule, not training (only) schedule.

2008: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/team_stats.asp?year=2008&teamcode=tsl

David Zabriskie does 35 race days.
Lowe does 81. As do proven ex-dopers Millar and CVV.

In fact David Zabriskie is never recorded as racing 81 days: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_stats.asp?riderid=449

And he's a known ex-doper, currently suspended.

Lowe: 2008-1010: 155 days racing
Zabriskie: 2008-1010: 167 days racing

An average of 4 days/year racing less for the always clean Lowe vs the definite ex-doper Zabriskie.

 

[Athame]

Either way, you guys are stuck with me, for a while. So, better to try an give me suggestions, as opposed to hoping I replace myself.

_________________ It's been pretty good ride so far. Keep up the good work.
_________________ Here's a "Cheers" to weathering the Sh*t Storm.
_________________

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This is not the first time JV has admitted to a passive aggressive approach to team management.

I cannot find the article easily, but a new team rider was feeling very confident so JV deliberately did not follow him in the team car in a TT in a race.

Don't remember if this had any impact on the rider, but the attitude from JV was - I need to show this rider who boss the is.

 

[hrotha]

This is not the first time JV has admitted to a passive aggressive approach to team management.

I cannot find the article easily, but a new team rider was feeling very confident so JV deliberately did not follow him in the team car in a TT in a race.

Don't remember if this had any impact on the rider, but the attitude from JV was - I need to show this rider who boss the is.

Craig Lewis, I think.

 

[D-Queued]

This is not the first time JV has admitted to a passive aggressive approach to team management.

I cannot find the article easily, but a new team rider was feeling very confident so JV deliberately did not follow him in the team car in a TT in a race.

Don't remember if this had any impact on the rider, but the attitude from JV was - I need to show this rider who boss the is.

That isn't passive aggressive.

That is smart leadership: Lead, follow or get out of the way.

If someone doesn't want you to lead, then get out of the way.

What was he supposed to do, argue with him and say 'I'm the boss'?

Dave.

 

[Athame]

the attitude from JV was - I need to show this rider who boss the is.

___________________ can't speak per the incident but you post as if
___________________ asserting/enforcing leadership "structure" is wrong.

 

[D-Queued]

___________________ can't speak per the incident but you post as if
___________________ asserting/enforcing leadership "structure" is wrong.

He doesn't like 'the man'.

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Training and racing schedule, not training (only) schedule.

2008: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/team_stats.asp?year=2008&teamcode=tsl

David Zabriskie does 35 race days.
Lowe does 81. As do proven ex-dopers Millar and CVV.

That would not be the same Zabriskie that fractured a vertebrae early in the 2008 Giro would it? That Zabriskie seems to have had a long list of injuries that kept him from racing.

It is ridiculous to claim that past EPO use, years after the resulting extra red blood cells would be dead dead dead, somehow explains Lowe not being able to handle a similar training/racing load as his teammates.

You also have no way of knowing Lowe's doping history prior to Slipstream. Maybe he had the same monsterous advantage that you are claiming for Millar and CVV.

 

[Runitout]

Training and racing schedule, not training (only) schedule.

2008: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/team_stats.asp?year=2008&teamcode=tsl

David Zabriskie does 35 race days.
Lowe does 81. As do proven ex-dopers Millar and CVV.

In fact David Zabriskie is never recorded as racing 81 days: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_stats.asp?riderid=449

And he's a known ex-doper, currently suspended.

Lowe: 2008-1010: 155 days racing
Zabriskie: 2008-1010: 167 days racing

An average of 4 days/year racing less for the always clean Lowe vs the definite ex-doper Zabriskie.

I would guess that it was the training schedule, more than the race days, than had the impact.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

___________________ can't speak per the incident but you post as if
___________________ asserting/enforcing leadership "structure" is wrong.

He didn't assert anything - no words were spoken to the rider. The rider had to guess what was going on based on random team management presence in a follow car during a TT.

Hardly think it would have been obvious before, during or even after the TT
1. who was in the follow car
2. why JV wasn't

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That would not be the same Zabriskie that fractured a vertebrae early in the 2008 Giro would it? That Zabriskie seems to have had a long list of injuries that kept him from racing.

It is ridiculous to claim that past EPO use, years after the resulting extra red blood cells would be dead dead dead, somehow explains Lowe not being able to handle a similar training/racing load as his teammates.

You also have no way of knowing Lowe's doping history prior to Slipstream. Maybe he had the same monsterous advantage that you are claiming for Millar and CVV.

The fact remains - Lowe did as much as the proven ex-dopers in that first year, and averaged as much as Zabriskie over his Garmin tenure.

Fractured vertebrae or chronic fatigue - both results of training and/or racing.

There are riders with far less race days. JV is not being hard on them about receiving a salary.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

He doesn't like 'the man'.

Dave.

Disagree entirely.

I strongly dislike lying - and JV's admission that he says, "the next thing that pops into his mind" indicates his lack of desire for truth.

His Ted talk "calorie savings" claims and recent "Lowe did no racing but collected a salary in 2010" are but 2 simple examples backing up this assertion that JV plays fast and loose with the truth.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Craig Lewis, I think.

Thanks - it was.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/jonathan-vaughters/to-live-and-be-alive
...
Craig was just 19 at the time, a rising star in US cycling, and one with beautiful style on the bike, along with an confident flair that had me convinced he would go very far in the pro ranks. He came into that Tour of Georgia with absolutely no fear of the top pros. He’d beat them, pure and simple, was his attitude. And in the time trial that day, he was beating them again. His intermediate time had been announced as on par with Viatcheslav Ekimov at the halfway point, so he was on a great ride, without a doubt.

For Craig, sacrifice was the road to success. He had a determination and fire that I had not seen in the young riders I’d been working with since I retired. He had what it took to go far in this brutal and gladiatorial sport: He didn’t care about the consequences and I quietly loved his fierce pride.

That day in Rome I chose to let a neutral car drive behind Craig, while I went behind a more senior rider on the team. Craig’s persona was getting a bit large, so I figured he needed to know it wasn’t all about him. If you wanted to be a pro cyclist, you needed to be selfless, as well, and you needed to respect your boss. Letting him go on his own that day was a little message to him, and to the rest of the team: I don’t play favorites.
...

That isn't passive aggressive.

That is smart leadership: Lead, follow or get out of the way.

If someone doesn't want you to lead, then get out of the way.

What was he supposed to do, argue with him and say 'I'm the boss'?

Dave.

I am basing my claim on the following style of definition for passive-aggressive behaviour:

Passive aggressive behaviour takes many forms but can generally be described as a non-verbal aggression that manifests in negative behavior. It is where you are angry with someone but do not or cannot tell them.

JV displayed negative behaviour towards a rider on his team in both instances (no email reply to Lowe and letting a neutral car follow during a TT for the new, strong rider) but said nothing to the riders in question to clear the air or discuss the issue proactively.

If that is smart leadership, I would like to see your definitions for "smart" and "leadership".

 

[TheNemesis]

Interesting thread. On this question of whether Vaughters has evolved or not.

I don't think he has 'evolved' as such, he's essentially the same person committed to working for anti doping within the sport without being hysterical about it. But he has had to adapt to the different circumstances brought by the Fed/USADA inquiries.

He's never had a vindictive streak and did not believed it was necessary to strip wins and expose people to change the sport, which put him at odds with those who were obsessed with bringing down Armstrong and other riders. The slipestream project was about setting an example of a clean model which he hoped riders would embrace and other teams would emulate, and this had been working very well - the sport had taken a significant step forward before USADA came along.

So it's no surprise that when the USADA enquiry started, he wasn't best pleased about it. Sure he always thought the real story of the era would come out over time, but to have it all come out in such an explosive way, setting riders against each other and the mainstram media going nuts, would have huge risks for the sport. And the potential downside for his team was great giving they were heavily implicated in the past. The team brand could have suffered terribly. But he had to cooperate and embrace USADA if he was to maintain his credibility on antidoping - not doing so would have ruined all of his good work.

Naturally an optimist, I think he has come to sincerely believe that something good can come out all this. This is quite noble since, though the sport has probably been damanged in the way he expected, his own team has faired much better than he must have imagined in his wildest dreams. So there is no longer any real incentive for him to push for things like TRC for selfish reasons. He understands that if things are going to be laid bare about a few riders in such a public way, then you may as well do it properly and create a forum where everybody can come clean and put things in their true context - it shouldn't be a witch hunt against one rider. I think this is very sensible and should be supported.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Interesting thread. On this question of whether Vaughters has evolved or not.
<snip>

Is this a mind meld with JV?

 

[Jeremiah]

I have never worked for a company where I felt if I pointed out what was going on wrong, Id get fired. Ive worked for a bunch of companies through my career as a contractor or full time employee, and Ive never seen any place that doesnt want their employees to act ethically.

I dont believe for a second most people work for company that puts them in a position daily, as what cycling was in the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe you occasionally have to make the choice to stand up on principle, but If youre working for a place where you have to speak up to a company thats doing wrong on a regular basis, you need to get out of there and report to authorities that regulate the industry.

I really don't know what to say to that. That kind of blows my mind actually.

Well, I don't know you so I don't know which side of the equation you're on. I'll give you a couple of well known examples. Enron, Arthur Anderson, BP, Every single Wall St firm which created mortgage backed derivatives, and on 60 minutes tonight there was an indictment on the whole credit reporting industry.

If you were an ethical employee in those companies, or entire industries, and took action to do the right thing, you had a target on your back.

I was in the transportation industry. There is a reason why big transportation companies spend huge sums of money lobbying lawmakers.

The Bush Administration declawed OSHA in 2001 because industry bigwigs determinied that proposed regulations would cost them billions. OSHA regulations have real world effects on employees. Pointing out those reasons was NOT appreciated.

There IS a reason the word whistleblower exists and there are also reasons movies like Erin Brockovitch, Norma Rae, The Insider and many other movies are made. Because wherever large sums of money are involved there is corruption.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well, I don't know you so I don't know which side of the equation you're on. I'll give you a couple of well known examples. Enron, Arthur Anderson, BP, Every single Wall St firm which created mortgage backed derivatives, and on 60 minutes tonight there was an indictment on the whole credit reporting industry.

If you want a contemporary example, Orica (of Orica-Greenedge fame) is worth a look...

 

[Parrot23]

I see this on Trent after his cycling career:

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2013/02/trent-lowe-life-after-cycling/

It's tough for someone when he is maligned. CN does not seem to have done well with either the Joe Papp situation (betrayal of RaceRadio) and Trent Lowe. A good lesson for the clinic on all sides of the issues.

 

[Jeremiah]

If you want a contemporary example, Orica (of Orica-Greenedge fame) is worth a look...

Thanks...Damn, those guys are a nightmare and I've come to believe they are the rule and not the exception. The people that move up the ladder in that kind of company, and those kinds of companies are pervasive, terrify me.

And I thought I was a slow learner and overly credulous.

Anyway, thanks...

ps, in a related note I happened to speak to a couple of Andersen people after the Enron scandal. Having a background in accounting, I knew that they applied auditing tests to accounting systems, but I asked them, 'what keeps you guys in line?' They laughed and one guy responded, "Professional Ethics." I knew before I asked of the hypocrisy that existed. They are suspicious of everyone except there was no one to police them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_ethics

Corruption or the threat of it is ubiquitous. To not see it is to be blind...

 

[JV1973]

Mr. Vaughters,

I've waited more than a day before responding, because I've been trying to sort out how I felt when you wrote that you <paraphrasing> "gave up and wrote off" one of your riders as an excuse for not responding to his emails; which subsequently led to a huge mess.

It's this, and not the issue of doping why I have the opinion that you aren't necessarily the right guy to be leading the reform in our sport. Instead of engaging your employee and confronting the issues, you took a shortcut. You ultimately chose the easy way out and cheated that rider in the process. From the thousand mile view, not knowing you personally, it kind of sounds like the same as what led you to dope.

I have a feeling that you're a great guy with awesome ideas and a drive to clean up the sport. But you're "compromised". You've taken the easy way out and made understandable, but bad decisions. I get an uneasy feeling when you talk about a breakaway league. Possibly with some notorious characters from recent doping past. And it's all being done behind closed doors.

I don't think cycling needs "perfect" people, but I do think that we need un-compromised people of unwavering character to lead the reform in our sport. People like LeMond and Betsy and Walsh and a hundred other cyclists that didn't dope or look the other way when it was convenient. Ever.

I hope you take this as the honest criticism that it is and not a bashing. I wish you and Garmin a fantastic season.

John Swanson

John,

I'm not going to get into details. as I've been asked to let this go, by a friend of Trent's. So, I'm going to let it go.

But, I would kindly ask that you consider that there are two sides to every story.

As for your "JV, you can't lead cycling..." Did I ever say I wanted to? Ever?

If you want LeMond or David Walsh to lead cycling, great! Go tell them. Have you ever met them? You should, if you have the chance, they are both good people.

JV

 

[JV1973]

You need to ask yourself what the employee did to create a situation where the employer was so fed up with dealing with the employee that he decided the best course of action was to wait for the clock to run out on the employment contract while wasting as little time as possible dealing with the employee. Since real money was being paid every month, the situation must have been very caustic for the employer to decide to essentially throw that money away.

The biggest mistake my riders/employees/fans make is to assume that because I am staunchly anti-doping, that it also means that I'm a nice and jovial boss. I'm not. I'm kind of an *******.

But I'm not an *** about end performance. That is something that I always keep in mind can lead to doping. If a guy doesn't perform, that is something I am very soft with. As long as the excuse is reasonable.

If a guy doesn't performs because he's 15% body fat and has a nasty attitude, well, that's different. I can be the biggest ******* you've ever met in the case...

 

[JV1973]

That would not be the same Zabriskie that fractured a vertebrae early in the 2008 Giro would it? That Zabriskie seems to have had a long list of injuries that kept him from racing.

It is ridiculous to claim that past EPO use, years after the resulting extra red blood cells would be dead dead dead, somehow explains Lowe not being able to handle a similar training/racing load as his teammates.

You also have no way of knowing Lowe's doping history prior to Slipstream. Maybe he had the same monsterous advantage that you are claiming for Millar and CVV.

Red cells die in 30-90 days, depending on stress load on the cells. Typically, upon cessation of EPO, red cell count returns to baseline in 18-25 days, due to down regulation of new red cell production. sometimes, in 30-90 days after EPO cessation, red cell count is actually below normal.

Long story short: Guys quite often go backwards (i.e. slow as snot) after they quit EPO. Sometimes they get back to normal after some time. Sometimes they don't...

 

[JV1973]

Looking forward to it.....


.....so when are you going to dismantle my nonsense?

This is very simple, JVs story was the same in 2006, what changed was that Armstrong was finally exposed.


Ya, I am sure JV thinks I am a great fanboy particularly as it was me that started a thread 2 years ago asking why he would not come clean on his own past.

And that's why I now understand JVs position. He admitted he had his confession written for years - but he had to wait until Armstrong and his mob were declawed before he could finally make it public.
I always knew Armstrong was vindictive but even I had underestimated how much so until the full extent of his fraud was exposed.

I met with Walsh in 2003, USADA in 2004, WADA in 2006. First ex-pro cyclist ever to do so, on all three accounts.

Oh, and Juliet Macur of NYT in 2006... NYT could not have run Frankie story, unless it was corroborated by another source...As to say, had i told Juliet to get lost, the story would not have ran.

Man, if you guys only knew everything that has gone on, you'd stop viewing me as you do. (I don't mean this in any self glorifying way, I'm just frustrated by the lack of information that is out to you guys. That will change with time)

Dr Mas: Sorry to use your quote, was actually responding to the same stuff you were.