JV talks, sort of

[red_flanders]

Then there's the issue with Sky dominating races, at the same time as reports that British Sky Broadcasting is in talks with about broadcast rights to World Series Cycling. We have both Tour and Giro starting in the UK in the next few years, and recent London Olympics. All of this makes it look like the business of cycling is in pursuit of the British market. Maybe Sky is clean, and everything is just coincidental, but it opens the door for fans to question whether Sky are being protected like Lance's teams were.

Given cycling's past, it's not hard to see why some have the opinion that UCI could be covering up Team Sky's doping. It would be nice if that opinion could be proved wrong, but given all the dirt that has come out - and the fact that new clean cycling doesn't seem to be able to rid itself of McQuaid and Verbruggen, why should fans believe?

BINGO. As always, follow the money.

Great post on all counts BTW.

 

[martinvickers]

BINGO. As always, follow the money.

Great post on all counts BTW.

Erm, the Giro is under Cycling Ireland jurisdiction, even in Belfast.

The An Post boys will be delighted the UCi's got their back....

 

[JV1973]

yes, all of your points are valid. if there are sponsors reading, please stop sponsoring cycling and especially my team. we are all doping. full gas.

 

[Netserk]

yes, all of your points are valid. if there are sponsors reading, please stop sponsoring cycling and especially my team. we are all doping. full gas.

Why should that make them stop sponsoring? AFAIK cycling is still amongst the most efficient(cheapest) ways to advertise.

 

[JV1973]

Why should that make them stop sponsoring? AFAIK cycling is still amongst the most efficient(cheapest) ways to advertise.

i can tell you that doping issues totally overshadow any roi numbers. That is the consistent message I hear from legitimate corporate sponors (katusha, bmc, astana, etc are more "hobby" sponsorships, so I am not aware of their perspective)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

yes, all of your points are valid. if there are sponsors reading, please stop sponsoring cycling and especially my team. we are all doping. full gas.

That is pretty weak, thought and scaled you with more balls Vaughters.

Why not be honest? Just say you hope cycling is cleaning up but you have no way of knowing. You dont even have to accuse other teams imho. We have eyes.

Katusha with the dodgiest staff of the last 22 years, they really stopped with the needles we must assume, and, yet they are allowed to participate at MPCC?

But, how about that ABP? Do you still have faith in it?

 

[JV1973]

That is pretty weak, thought and scaled you with more balls Vaughters.

Why not be honest? Just say you hope cycling is cleaning up but you have no way of knowing. You dont even have to accuse other teams imho. We have eyes.

Katusha with the dodgiest staff of the last 22 years, they really stopped with the needles we must assume, and, yet they are allowed to participate at MPCC?

But, how about that ABP? Do you still have faith in it?

ive got to stop arguing with folks who have already made up their mind. why bother asking me the above questions when (most of) you already have the answer?

 

[horsinabout]

Actually, he's perfectly entitled to say that. He can say what he wants. I'm just not entirely sure why he wastes his time in here. Honestly, it's become like a cult. There's no arguing with a religious fundamentalist. Just smile, and go to the pub.

The only sensible response is to enjoy it for comedy value, and spend any actual anti-doping energy somewhere actually useful.

I tell you vic's if I thought this place was like a cult I wouldn't be here.

Can't write for anyone else, but I am against the real cult Fascists out there, doing there major doping programs. (woops used the "F" word)

So I think it is time for you to visit your local for a pint of Guiness.

 

[Netserk]

i can tell you that doping issues totally overshadow any roi numbers. That is the consistent message I hear from legitimate corporate sponors (katusha, bmc, astana, etc are more "hobby" sponsorships, so I am not aware of their perspective)

Well it's not like only cyclists dope. Why do you think that cycling is the scapegoat of sports?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

ive got to stop arguing with folks who have already made up their mind. why bother asking me the above questions when (most of) you already have the answer?

I asked you if you have faith in the ABP, has got nothing to do with me the former airmchair cycling lover. The juggle is this: u say the ABP is foul proof, like McQuiad, [that is an hyperboooooole, keep smiling], I/we bring arguments why I/we think it is not.

Isnt that what adults do? Trying with arguments to get to the bottom of things?
We have got to learn a lot the last year with regards to the ABP. I know you want it out of the hands of UCI, but, and now for the real question: how long is it gonna take before UCI is 'giving' this away? 2015? Untill then I do not have faith in it. No way.

Please forgive us cynics for that lack of faith.

And, maybe, things are going better, okay, it is not 1993/1997, but, if you are honest you see a lot of things that are still eyebrowsing.

I do not expect you to put that on this board. I am no cyclingdummy.

 

[peace in middle east]

ive got to stop arguing with folks who have already made up their mind. why bother asking me the above questions when (most of) you already have the answer?

even in the clinic there's room for good arguments.
your "within human limits" argument wrt Sky was just challenged upthread by somebody who pointed out that a maximally geared Ricco also rode within human limits. Your turn.

The "it's only cheating if you get caught" mentality that was (is?) popular in the peloton is a bit what I sense when you say you like watching Cancellara while criticizing guys like Ricco and Hamilton.

 

[JV1973]

I asked you if you have faith in the ABP, has got nothing to do with me the former airmchair cycling lover. The juggle is this: u say the ABP is foul proof, like McQuiad, [that is an hyperboooooole, keep smiling], I/we bring arguments why I/we think it is not.

Isnt that what adults do? Trying with arguments to get to the bottom of things?
We have got to learn a lot the last year with regards to the ABP. I know you want it out of the hands of UCI, but, and now for the real question: how long is it gonna take before UCI is 'giving' this away? 2015? Untill then I do not have faith in it. No way.

Please forgive us cynics for that lack of faith.

And, maybe, things are going better, okay, it is not 1993/1997, but, if you are honest you see a lot of things that are still eyebrowsing.

I do not expect you to put that on this board. I am no cyclingdummy.

i dont blame your for being a cynic, but i would ask that when i present real and easily verified numbers up, like climbing speeds being down 10%, that you think about it. Dont just dismiss it out of hand.

cadf has recently made itself autonomous from uci. pat had to step down as president of cadf and was replaced by daniel baal. no idea why it hasnt been announcd.

ive never said the abp was foolproof. its ridiculous to say that.

the cynicism will remain until pat and hein are gone. this is not a judgement of their efforts, its just a simple fact.

 

[JV1973]

even in the clinic there's room for good arguments.
your "within human limits" argument wrt Sky was just challenged upthread by somebody who pointed out that a maximally geared Ricco also rode within human limits. Your turn.

The "it's only cheating if you get caught" mentality that was (is?) popular in the peloton is a bit what I sense when you say you like watching Cancellara while criticizing guys like Ricco and Hamilton.

good arguments are one thing,but youve already made negative personal assessments about me an my organization. thats not debate.

 

[Netserk]

i dont blame your for being a cynic, but i would ask that when i present real and easily verified numbers up, like climbing speeds being down 10%, that you think about it. Dont just dismiss it out of hand.

cadf has recently made itself autonomous from uci. pat had to step down as president of cadf and was replaced by daniel baal. no idea why it hasnt been announcd.

ive never said the abp was foolproof. its ridiculous to say that.

the cynicism will remain until pat and hein are gone. this is not a judgement of their efforts, its just a simple fact.

The drop in speed is from when to when? Only MTFs or?

 

[Netserk]

Contador on Verbier has the record for VAM in the Tour. Not exactly slowing down, eh?

 

[JV1973]

The drop in speed is from when to when? Only MTFs or?

consistent drop in climbing speeds from 1997 onward. not perfectly linear, of course. large drop from 2008 onwards. climbing speeds are more statistically significant than speeds on flat as they correspond more directly with power outputs.

 

[JV1973]

Contador on Verbier has the record for VAM in the Tour. Not exactly slowing down, eh?

no. pantani has many vams over 2000. verbier is a sub 20 min climb. direct comparisons need to be made by climbs over 35 mins. thats what i keep track of. 20min clmbs have too large of an anearobic power component to be directly linear to o2 delivery and therefor o2 vector doping.

 

[Netserk]

consistent drop in climbing speeds from 1997 onward. not perfectly linear, of course. large drop from 2008 onwards. climbing speeds are more statistically significant than speeds on flat as they correspond more directly with power outputs.

On Tour MTFs? Or more general (also in other races and non-MTFs mountains?)

 

[JV1973]

On Tour MTFs? Or more general (also in other races and non-MTFs mountains?)

over 35 min mtf in any event.

 

[Netserk]

If an obvious doper like Ricco was within human limits, can that be used as an argument for performances being clean?

 

[skippy]

JV i was surprised to see your last comment .

Posted this earlier in the week & wonder if you care to reply :

JV , that you are taking the time to contribute , is appreciated , i have learnt a great deal more here from your recent 3 days of contribututions , than the time i spent at the tirreno-Adriatico , when i had several chats with this seasons racers .

JV , if you were on the outside of the Teams , what would you do to make the " Clinic " a force to be visited by Team Owners/Managers seeking to improve the SPORT of Cycling ? What could " Clinic Members " do that would make this FORUM a force with views & expectations to be listened to and respected ?

check my blog : " tourdafarce.blogspot " for more .

 

[JV1973]

If an obvious doper like Ricco was within human limits, can that be used as an argument for performances being clean?

of course not, but it can be used as an argumnt that a clean rider could win,even if ricco was doping. figures from 1994-2005 would preclude this possibility.

 

[Netserk]

Do you think it is possible to catch riders that only micro-dose and use BBs (in limited numbers)?

 

[the sceptic]

no. pantani has many vams over 2000. verbier is a sub 20 min climb. direct comparisons need to be made by climbs over 35 mins. thats what i keep track of. 20min clmbs have too large of an anearobic power component to be directly linear to o2 delivery and therefor o2 vector doping.

How do you explain Wiggo beating Lance on Verbier?

 

[roundabout]

That's an exercise in futility.

Wiggins climbed Ventoux in 2009 faster than Rumsas did in 2002.

Wiggins climbed Toussuire about as fast as Sastre in 2006.

The clean riders of 2012 climbed as fast the dopers in 2007 on the Peyresourde East (although that one is hard to believe).

Share the power numbers. None of that VAM crap. Maybe then more people will believe you.