JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

I don't put any credence into anything Vaughters says. He's a former doper now trying to sell "cleaner" cycling. He has a vested interest in convincing fans that the sport is clean and believable, despite obvious signs to the contrary.

JV's 'voice in the clinic' obviously agrees since he has not got pedantic on your post

 

[zachateseverything]

Why does JV say there isnt a big market for Horner next year similar to Cobo? Because everyone knows they were juiced to the eyeballs?

Not to completely discount the possibility of doping allegations by JV, but why would you throw a bunch of money at Chris Horner to be on your cycling team? It's a similar situation to Levi earlier this year.

He's nearly 42. He has a hard time staying healthy and completing a full season the last several years. He likely isn't going to win another big stage race. Horner does a fantastic job of reading a race, might be able to help mentor the younger guys, and carries a significant number of UCI points, but how much is that worth?

Just like any other sport, overspending on veterans is a good way to tie up resources. You pay guys based on what you think they're going to do for you, not what they've already done.

 

[Benotti69]

Oh come on now. You don't have to agree with the logic of an argument that differentiates between Cobo and Froome to see that at least potentially there is one: From Vaughter's point of view, Froome has the Badzilla excuse plus Sky (a team he seems to think are genuine in their anti-doping policy) vouching for him. Cobo has a year without a single cq point and Saunier Duval.

It's also worth noting that this tweet doesn't so much point the finger at Cobo as imply that everyone who might be hiring assumed he was doping, which is a slightly different thing.

What's more interesting than him implying a distinction between Cobo and Froome, given that nobody anywhere ever really tries to justify Juan Jose unless they are making a rhetorical point about Froome, is that his tweets also imply a distinction between Wiggins and Froome, where he vouches for Wiggins but says he doesn't know when it comes to Froome.

Wiggins has a difference of -2374 points in 1 year. Cobo, -962 points in a year. If JV thinks this is proof of Cobo's doping then Wiggo is well ahead of Cobo in the pharmaceutical race.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I don't put any credence into anything Vaughters says. He's a former doper now trying to sell "cleaner" cycling. He has a vested interest in convincing fans that the sport is clean and believable, despite obvious signs to the contrary.

JV's 'voice in the clinic' obviously agrees since he has not got pedantic on your post

Of course not I just patiently waited.
Because I knew either yourself or sniper would use Mooses post to slap yourself on the back.

I don't blame Moose though - as you guys distort what JV says and then repeat the mantra about 'selling clean cycling' so much, what JV actually says can get lost.

This was written on this forum - by JV. You're welcome.

BINGO. Just because I believe things are going well right now, doesn't mean i think it's going to stick, if we don't see some big improvements in the structure of anti-doping and the resources at its disposal. Big improvements.

 

[sniper]

This was written on this forum - by JV. You're welcome.

thanks for that quote as it does nothing other than cement our (if i may) point.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Wiggins has a difference of -2374 points in 1 year. Cobo, -962 points in a year. If JV thinks this is proof of Cobo then Wiggo as well is alongside Cobo.

I know that you are completely one-eyed, but really, even you know that this is not comparable. For a full time professional, on a top tier team, who is actually riding as opposed to lying in a hospital bed, to get zero cq points in year is a truly remarkable achievement. To follow that up with a Grand Tour win the next year is completely unique and will likely remain so until the heat death of the universe. Nobody in the world of cycling has a more bizarre set of year on year results.

Also, your numbers are wrong, not that it means anything.

 

[Benotti69]

Of course not I just patiently waited.
Because I knew either yourself or sniper would use Mooses post to slap yourself on the back.

I don't blame Moose though - as you guys distort what JV says and then repeat the mantra about 'selling clean cycling' so much, what JV actually says can get lost.

This was written on this forum - by JV. You're welcome.

So Moose cant think for himself!

JV distorts cycling being cleanER, not me. Nothing changed Dr, remember that, nothing, McQuaid still ran and runs anti doping, so the bio passport meant he had better control over the teams. McQuaid proved his position on doping with the Contador's clen case.

JV is trying to run a business that happens to be a cycling team. I understand that. It is his job to sell positivity and get the money in. But when he is called out on it, he lies, that's business. Cycling never got cleanER imo.

 

[the sceptic]

I know that you are completely one-eyed, but really, even you know that this is not comparable. For a full time professional, on a top tier team, who is actually riding as opposed to lying in a hospital bed, to get zero cq points in year is a truly remarkable achievement. To follow that up with a Grand Tour win the next year is completely unique and will likely remain so until the heat death of the universe. Nobody in the world of cycling has a more bizarre set of year on year results.

Also, your numbers are wrong, not that it means anything.

How about 2009? or any year prior to that? You can vortex your way out with the badzilla excuse but the results speak for themselves, Cobo was a lot more believeable than Froome in that 2011 vuelta.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So Moose cant think for himself!

JV distorts cycling being cleanER, not me. Nothing changed Dr, remember that, nothing, McQuaid still ran and runs anti doping, so the bio passport meant he had better control over the teams. McQuaid proved his position on doping with the Contador's clen case.

JV is trying to run a business that happens to be a cycling team. I understand that. It is his job to sell positivity and get the money in. But when he is called out on it, he lies, that's business. Cycling never got cleanER imo.

He is in a position to know - you are not.

See this is where you distort things. There is little doubt that the Bio Passport did change things. But like all things people will find a way around it.
That is the danger - and JV has acknowledged that. But you guys drown it out.

 

[Benotti69]

I know that you are completely one-eyed, but really, even you know that this is not comparable. For a full time professional, on a top tier team, who is actually riding as opposed to lying in a hospital bed, to get zero cq points in year is a truly remarkable achievement. To follow that up with a Grand Tour win the next year is completely unique and will likely remain so until the heat death of the universe. Nobody in the world of cycling has a more bizarre set of year on year results.

Also, your numbers are wrong, not that it means anything.

check the avatar

Yes it is unique, but hey this is cycling where riders can be grupetto fodder one year GT podium the next. It is the magic of the pro peloton, unicorns can easily hide in the pack.

 

[Benotti69]

He is in a position to know - you are not.

See this is where you distort things. There is little doubt that the Bio Passport did change things. But like all things people will find a way around it.
That is the danger - and JV has acknowledged that. But you guys drown it out.

In JV's position it also easier to distort the truth. When the obvious is revealed again, unblievable performances, JV's silence in here is deafening.

 

[coinneach]

How about 2009? or any year prior to that? You can vortex your way out with the badzilla excuse but the results speak for themselves, Cobo was a lot more believeable than Froome in that 2011 vuelta.

Maybe so, but isn't the next couple of years interesting.
Froome has gone on to show it wasn't a flash in the pan, and his performances up to and including the 13 Tour were stellar
Has Cobo actually done anything since his Vuelta win?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

thanks for that quote as it does nothing other than cement our (if i may) point.

No, you may not. Your request to troll me has been noted and denied.

In JV's position it also easier to distort the truth. When the obvious is revealed again, unblievable performances, JV's silence in here is deafening.

Ah, of course you run JV off the board then claim his 'silence' is some sort of proof.
I would rather hear what he does have to say - not your biased viewpoint.

 

[Benotti69]

Ah, of course you run JV off the board then claim his 'silence' is some sort of proof.
I would rather hear what he does have to say - not your biased viewpoint.

Please dont give me an ego, ran JV out of the clinic, I wish!

Why not invite him back, via twitter, to spell out how Froome and Horner became unicorns?

I dont bite you know.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe so, but isn't the next couple of years interesting.
Froome has gone on to show it wasn't a flash in the pan, and his performances up to and including the 13 Tour were stellar
Has Cobo actually done anything since his Vuelta win?

Cobo showed more promise of doing something than Froome did when Froome upped his 'game' at 2011 Vuelta.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

How about 2009? or any year prior to that? You can vortex your way out with the badzilla excuse but the results speak for themselves, Cobo was a lot more believeable than Froome in that 2011 vuelta.

I am not here to defend Froome. Merely to point out why some people - in good faith and without being congenital idiots - can see a distinction between the (in)credibility levels of the two.

Personally I find both transformations bizarre.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Please dont give me an ego, ran JV out of the clinic, I wish!

Why not invite him back, via twitter, to spell out how Froome and Horner became unicorns?

I dont bite you know.

Why would I? I would like to hear his opinions on other things. I dont give a hoot about Horner or Froome
You're the one obsessed with what JV says (or doesn't say) in an effort to stroke your ego.

Would you expect JV to come talk with you after this, just yesterday, as an example:

People or Riders, does the Vortex not know?



Hasn't stopped you accounting for Chemical JV.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Why not invite him back, via twitter, to spell out how Froome and Horner became unicorns?

This is why arguing with a few of the obsessives is so tiresome. As you no doubt know, Vaughters position on Froome (as opposed to Wiggins) is "I don't know". And his position on Horner, judging by his twitter feed is one of outright skepticism. And as you equally well know, his cleaner cycling argument includes an assumption that some people are still doping and that some winners are still doping. So he doesn't have to take the view that any particular rider is clean for his position to be consistent.

Yet despite knowing all of that, you still choose to misrepresent his views, attributing arguments to him that are, of course, easy to knock down. If you were actually interested in developing a useful discussion you would want to take on his argument in its strongest form.

It's not just you (although you are one of the main culprits) but the atmosphere in here is completely toxic. Not because there are loads of posters who think everyone is doping, or because there are loads who think that the sport is cleaner, and loads in between. But because so many people both make arguments here in bad faith and, consequently, assume bad faith on the part of everyone else.

 

[pmcg76]

Cobo showed more promise of doing something than Froome did when Froome upped his 'game' at 2011 Vuelta.

Is this the same Cobo who was killing everyone with Piepoli/Ricco at Saunier Duval. Surely by your own standards, that means that Cobo was definitely juiced up so how do you have any idea what his talent level is??

Holy ****, I don't believe in Froome at all but the chances of Froome being clean-ish before Vuelta 2011 are higher than Cobo being clean at Saunier Duval. As I said before, not everyone was doping at Saunier Duval but I would find it unlikely that Cobo was one of them.

 

[sniper]

No, you may not. Your request to troll me has been noted and denied.

sorry, dr., you weren't invited to "our" party there. next time maybe.

the n-th obvious misinterpretation that is, in the space of, say, 4 to 5 pages.
i sure hope you're trolling here, cuz if you aren't, all these misinterpretations do not bode well for your communicative skills.

 

[Benotti69]

Why would I? I would like to hear his opinions on other things. I dont give a hoot about Horner or Froome
You're the one obsessed with what JV says (or doesn't say) in an effort to stroke your ego.

Would you expect JV to come talk with you after this, just yesterday, as an example:

Have you read JVs twitter. Jeez you dont get out much!

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 10 Set

Hmmm.... Listening to a dude from Metallica speak about his new film here at #tiff. Very eloquent and well spoken. There goes my stereotype

Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters 19 Ago

I love messing with people. It's hobby that never stops giving.

So JV can stereotype people and mess with people.....hmmmmm

 

[Benotti69]

Is this the same Cobo who was killing everyone with Piepoli/Ricco at Saunier Duval. Surely by your own standards, that means that Cobo was definitely juiced up so how do you have any idea what his talent level is??

Holy ****, I don't believe in Froome at all but the chances of Froome being clean-ish before Vuelta 2011 are higher than Cobo being clean at Saunier Duval. As I said before, not everyone was doping at Saunier Duval but I would find it unlikely that Cobo was one of them.

Cobo juiced Froome juiced what difference is there, only the levels of juice and whether the rider is a better responder to the juice of the day.

Barloworld were squeaky clean, named in the Ferarri investigation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Have you read JVs twitter. Jeez you dont get out much!

So following JVs twitter is the new 'going out'? OK.

So JV can stereotype people and mess with people.....hmmmmm

Wow, you take peoples tweets literally? Scary.

 

[pmcg76]

Cobo juiced Froome juiced what difference is there, only the levels of juice and whether the rider is a better responder to the juice of the day.

Barloworld were squeaky clean, named in the Ferarri investigation.

So clearly if Froome were juiced at Barloworld, he wasn't reacting to it anywhere near as well as Cobo was at Saunier Duval but thankfully Froome is now responding to the great juice at SKY whilst the juice at Movistar is clearly not reacting well with Cobo at all.

So at the end of the day, as you believe they were juiced all the time, you still have no way of knowing that Cobo is more naturally talented than Froome but you are doing so anyways. Got it.

 

[Benotti69]

So following JVs twitter is the new 'going out'? OK.
Wow, you take peoples tweets literally? Scary.

Wow, people take forum posts so seriously, scary.