JV talks, sort of

[roundabout]

Yeah, results may not be a great indicator. Maybe we should ask Jens_Attacks or someone else to estimate how much power Hesjedal could have been putting out in the 06 Vuelta.

Edit: Vande Velde 42:40 in 2006 riding for team GC, 41:45 in 2008 riding for overall GC on the Alpe. Obviously usual disclaimers apply.

 

[Taxus4a]

Anyway, riding Vayer, he talk about Peraud, Danm Martin, lemond, as clean riders, but, coinciden or not, all they have french links...and at least in Spain we see at french people with some tends to chauvinism (I have been always in France very glad, anyway, it is a country I like), but with other riders he do very simple analysis, the same as Rassmusen when he said froome climb faster than him, what is not really true, it is tru just if you compare the time in some climbs, but the performance is not the same consider all the factor to take in account.
And the first thing to take into account is that Tour 2007 had a really hard route.

 

[thehog]

'At what point did MTB become "clean"?'

When did MTB riders stop smoking hash?

 

[Samson777]

When did MTB riders stop smoking hash?

There you go:

When Chicken and Hesjedal moved to Road?

 

[mattghg]

In the most recent Humans Invent cycling podcast, JV claims that he wanted to reveal all about Ryder's doping last year, but USADA told him not to.

 

[blackcat]

sounds like bull$hit^

 

[sniper]

sounds like bull$hit^

As somebody before me pointed out, its odd that JV is releasing so much apologizing PR for his riders.
If they really were clean, i guess i would expect them to be much more proactive themselves and do anything in their power to proof that theyre doing it clean, for isnatance by releasing more data, or by questioning Sky, or whatever.
to just hear JVs broken record all the time is a bit poor, i think.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

In the most recent Humans Invent cycling podcast, JV claims that he wanted to reveal all about Ryder's doping last year, but USADA told him not to.

I'll wait for the Daniel Benson exclusive where he asks Travis Tygart why he told JV not to say anything about Ryder's doping.

 

[Taxus4a]

As somebody before me pointed out, its odd that JV is releasing so much apologizing PR for his riders.
If they really were clean, i guess i would expect them to be much more proactive themselves and do anything in their power to proof that theyre doing it clean, for isnatance by releasing more data, or by questioning Sky, or whatever.
to just hear JVs broken record all the time is a bit poor, i think.

They dont question SKY, becouse SKy is a reference in antidoping. They dont have to act towards you becouse you dont believe SKY. It is like to question Ghandi to look more paceful, becouse some people, with his theories, think Ghandi is a violent man, becouse other way it is impossible to beat violent Britain empire... it has no sense.

Cyclist are under the most strong antidoping policy, that others sport consider humillating, release data is not necessary, you can ask, it is ok, but the data are already releases to expert... sometimes you release data and pseudoscientist put his doubts on that data...

That data as well are like your secret, is a gun you dont have to show to your rival.

I remember Gerdemman wanting someone follow him in the Tour with a camera to show it is possible to finish the Tour, and even to be up there without doping...nobody was interesting... and those times werent as clean as today.

I would like, anyway, that more data were released, for everybody, but it is just my personal view, I cant obly to that.

 

[Benotti69]

<snipped>

Cyclist are under the most strong antidoping policy


<snipped>

This is why your posts are worthless!

 

[sniper]

JV interview:
https://audioboo.fm/boos/1719447-special-humans-invent-cycling-jonathan-vaughters-interview

basically admits he redacted ryder's confession. ("it was a rushed confession, but it was 5 oclock in the morning on Maui, which is where he lives, and so it was difficult to get him on the phone")...major eyebrowe raiser.

furthermore says ryder's public confession "wasnt ideal".
What does that mean? not 100% truthful?

interviewers quizz him on his relationship with usada and imply a conflict of interest. JV says he's "proud" to have the same objectives as USADA. USADA and JV are clearly in bed together.

interviewers question why Garmin didn't disclose Ryder's doping history earlier. JV blames USADA/WADA.
what i don't get is why USADA would tell Ryder/JV to not disclose anything about Ryder's past because the investigation is ongoing.
If the investigation is still ongoing, how come USADA have already vouched for Ryder's truthfulness?

JV keeps going on about "the message, we have to repeat the message". He really is all about perception. Very little concrete. No ideas on increased transparency have I heard.

And again, why is he doing all the talking? Where is Ryder?

On a side note, I do agree with his criticism of ZTP.

 

[hrotha]

furthermore says ryder's public confession "wasnt ideal".
What does that mean? not 100% truthful?

Not done on their own terms, at a time of their choosing.

 

[sniper]

Not done on their own terms, at a time of their choosing.

that's one thing.
but in the interview he seems to suggest that the actual contents and/or wording of the confession weren't ideal.
i'm thinking more about the "more than 10 years ago" part.

 

[proffate]

furthermore says ryder's public confession "wasnt ideal".
What does that mean? not 100% truthful?

At the beginning he says it would have been much "simpler" if Ryder had been lumped in with the rest of the Garmin boys, exposed at the same time and given the same 6 month Winter vacation. The ideal time to raise your hand is when you'll get lost in the crowd rather than during a slow news cycle.

 

[proffate]

so basically this interview is JV saying the only way to a clean sport is to not look under the rug, ask too many hard questions, or hold anyone accountable for their actions, because these *** hats will never own up or grow a moral compass but just continue lying till the day they die unless a confession is completely painless and free of repercussions. That's the "way to a clean sport". Forget all about preferentially hiring riders who wouldn't/didn't dope in the first place, because booting the dopers on your team will just cause them to go somewhere else to dope.

The sickening part is when he's asked why he let the whole world hold up Ryder as a clean GT winner when he knew otherwise. "Well no one ever asked me directly..." Does some journalist need to go down the roster and ask JV directly "Did rider X ever dope" for every rider? Paging Mr Benson.

Hasn't JV's line always been "Garmin is a safe haven where you don't *have* to dope"? Has he ever claimed "Garmin is a place where you have to not dope"?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Antoine Vayer has been considered a strong voice on the doping situation in cycling for a long time now, much like Bassons. Vayer was also lauded around here(undoubtedly including yourself) when he published his book showing 'mutant' performances and for questioning SKY s performances. Vayer also works with Peraud and has stated that Peraud is a clean athlete.

Peraud's performances don't jive with what you claim is possible for a clean riders so rather than address it, you just dismiss it as irrelevant. Typical hypocritical type of reasoning, Vayer is a hero when he might be pointing out doping but dismissed when he points out a clean rider.

I dont want to mingle in your tug of words - from both - but I like it you bring up Jicé Peraud.

http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=504

Il aura son diplôme d’ingénieur en fin d’année et je pense qu’il privilégiera un emploi. La vie, c’est travailler, pas faire meilleur grimpeur du Tour. Et il en est capable ! D’un point de vue physiologique, Péraud est un athlète exceptionnel, puisque sa VO2 max est de 86 et qu’il dispose d’une puissance de 450 watts, ce qui est énorme pour un coureur qui pèse 70 kilos. Non dopé, il atteint les scores réalisés par des sportifs dopés, alors…

Of course that was 2004. VO2Max of 86, what must those guys in front of him have? Wait.

http://www.velo101.com/forum/voirsujet/montee-de-froome-au-ventoux--22304/page:3

" J'ai entraîné Jean-Christophe Péraud jusqu'aux Jeux olympiques d'Athènes. Il est le meilleur Français sur ce Tour (9e à 7 min 47 s de Froome). Hier matin il m' a confirmé la constance de sa VO2max pendant sa carrière : elle varie entre 79 et 85 ml/min/kg, selon son poids de saison. En laboratoire, sur un plateau de médecine du sport, on peut, grâce à ce simple test, évaluer parfaitement les capacités du "moteur" d'un athlète et prédire ses performances. Péraud a toujours été, selon moi, sans dopage et... exceptionnel parmi les 500 coureurs que j'ai pu faire tester, coureurs de Festina inclus. Il a été évalué par ces VO2max, souvent. Ses performances ont toujours été humaines à nos radars et en adéquation avec ces tests."

real source here:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...e-avec-armstrong-et-pantani_3447779_3242.html

Yes I think Peraud is a clean rider, his ninth place in the 2011 Tour - the 'slowest' in years - was promising indeed. But does that say anything on the guys in front of him? We 'know' Cadel has a VO2max of around 88, how about the new skinny monsters in the pelotoon?

 

[sniper]

so basically this interview is JV saying the only way to a clean sport is to not look under the rug, ask too many hard questions, or hold anyone accountable for their actions, because these *** hats will never own up or grow a moral compass but just continue lying till the day they die unless a confession is completely painless and free of repercussions. That's the "way to a clean sport". Forget all about preferentially hiring riders who wouldn't/didn't dope in the first place, because booting the dopers on your team will just cause them to go somewhere else to dope.

The sickening part is when he's asked why he let the whole world hold up Ryder as a clean GT winner when he knew otherwise. "Well no one ever asked me directly..." Does some journalist need to go down the roster and ask JV directly "Did rider X ever dope" for every rider? Paging Mr Benson.

Hasn't JV's line always been "Garmin is a safe haven where you don't *have* to dope"? Has he ever claimed "Garmin is a place where you have to not dope"?

good post. agree on all accounts.

so in the end it does not remain clear why JV hasn't tried harder to find untainted clean riders and staff.
there is so much doping experience gathered in that team, and at all levels (purchase, supply, administration, etc.)

 

[Benotti69]

At the beginning he says it would have been much "simpler" if Ryder had been lumped in with the rest of the Garmin boys, exposed at the same time and given the same 6 month Winter vacation. The ideal time to raise your hand is when you'll get lost in the crowd rather than during a slow news cycle.

Classic JV, like the UK Labour Government spin doctors who on 9/11 advised all government bodies it would be a good day to release bad news press releases as the press would be fixated on NY.

Ryder getting lumped in with all others would've blown over very quickly. But now JV has the *** storm to try and spin that Hesjedal won his Giro clean and really didn't dope after 2003 or was it 2004 on Disco or Phonak 2 massive doping teams!!!!!

Yep JV pull the other one it has balls on it!

 

[pastronef]

And again, why is he doing all the talking? Where is Ryder?

Ryder better keep his mouth shut, and let JV do the talking. We'll see him in jan-feb for the first training camp, then Catalunya, or who knows, maybe at TDU.
he'll have no problem coming back, maybe some french riders will take the **** out of him, but his other english speaking, latins, and benelux colleagues won't have anything to tell him and ask him, not even Kittel. the system works this way.
I'll support him anyway, instead of the likes of Basso, Scarponi, Valverde, Froome.

 

[sniper]

Ryder better keep his mouth shut, and let JV do the talking. We'll see him in jan-feb for the first training camp, then Catalunya, or who knows, maybe at TDU.
he'll have no problem coming back, maybe some french riders will take the **** out of him, but his other english speaking, latins, and benelux colleagues won't have anything to tell him and ask him, not even Kittel. the system works this way.
I'll support him anyway, instead of the likes of Basso, Scarponi, Valverde, Froome.

that's a doper's rule #1.

 

[the sceptic]

so basically this interview is JV saying the only way to a clean sport is to not look under the rug, ask too many hard questions, or hold anyone accountable for their actions, because these *** hats will never own up or grow a moral compass but just continue lying till the day they die unless a confession is completely painless and free of repercussions. That's the "way to a clean sport". Forget all about preferentially hiring riders who wouldn't/didn't dope in the first place, because booting the dopers on your team will just cause them to go somewhere else to dope.

The sickening part is when he's asked why he let the whole world hold up Ryder as a clean GT winner when he knew otherwise. "Well no one ever asked me directly..." Does some journalist need to go down the roster and ask JV directly "Did rider X ever dope" for every rider? Paging Mr Benson.

Hasn't JV's line always been "Garmin is a safe haven where you don't *have* to dope"? Has he ever claimed "Garmin is a place where you have to not dope"?

JV is just trying to justify his own existence in the sport. He needs to spin it that way.

Of course what he really should say is "former dopers have no buisness still being involved in the sport"

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

so basically this interview is JV saying the only way to a clean sport is to not look under the rug, ask too many hard questions, or hold anyone accountable for their actions, because these *** hats will never own up or grow a moral compass but just continue lying till the day they die unless a confession is completely painless and free of repercussions. That's the "way to a clean sport". Forget all about preferentially hiring riders who wouldn't/didn't dope in the first place, because booting the dopers on your team will just cause them to go somewhere else to dope.

The sickening part is when he's asked why he let the whole world hold up Ryder as a clean GT winner when he knew otherwise. "Well no one ever asked me directly..." Does some journalist need to go down the roster and ask JV directly "Did rider X ever dope" for every rider? Paging Mr Benson.

Hasn't JV's line always been "Garmin is a safe haven where you don't *have* to dope"? Has he ever claimed "Garmin is a place where you have to not dope"?

I posted this in another thread a few days ago. I admit it's a little over the top in terms of crankiness, but JV's quote of "making sure they don't" was enough to set me off. Maybe his ex-dopers aren't so regretful after all...


JV's quote from Wiggo's post:

"I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't. I set up a truth and reward policy to make sure there is clarity as to what is going on AND I allow any journalist any access they desire.

In addition Ive worked actively with WADA and USADA since 2004 to help improve their testing methods and execution and volunteered my team to try new testing methods."

For some reason, this just struck me, and it is as sad a commentary as you can find regarding the state of pro cycling.

JV is, ostensibly, running The Clean Team. How clean? Guaranteed, 100%. JV would even bet his life that a past doper is now clean. That's pretty f*cking serious.

Even with this level of belief, even with he himself running the cleanest of teams, even with his 'get out of jail free' disclosure meetings with riders, and even with all the support he can give repentant dopers, he STILL HAS TO SPEND HALF A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR "to make sure they don't".

That blows my mind, and really makes me feel disappointed in what cycling has become.

FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR!

Is that to make sure they're not doping, or to make sure they're not positive?

 

[sniper]

...
JV's quote from Wiggo's post:

"I don't tell my team not to dope. I spend over $500,000 annually to make sure they don't. I set up a truth and reward policy to make sure there is clarity as to what is going on AND I allow any journalist any access they desire.

the part in bold is at odds with prentice steffen's leaked email, which says 'don't worry, boys, this [i.e. the sharing of data with journo's] is a very retricted and controlled process"

 

[D-Queued]

the part in bold is at odds with prentice steffen's leaked email, which says 'don't worry, boys, this [i.e. the sharing of data with journo's] is a very retricted and controlled process"

In truth, of course, JV has to respect the privacy of the individuals on the team even if/where they have signed releases to allow access to this kind of information. JV cannot break laws in order to provide this access.

The 'exact' situation can probably not be summarized in a single sentence nor paragraph. But, the overarching policy and intent can.

JV has been clear about policy and intent.

Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The 'exact' situation can probably not be summarized in a single sentence nor paragraph. But, the overarching policy and intent can.

JV has been clear about policy and intent.

Dave.

Clear? I've asked here countless times what the policy is and noone knows. If JV has been clear, please enlighten me, coz from where I am sitting, it's clear as mud.