JV talks, sort of

[Digger]

Did Flyd win the Dauphine in 2002 as a clean rider or at a max on a testosterone patch? His claim is he only started doping at St.Moritz in June of 2002 at a pre-Tour training camp.

lance won it as you know full well

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Did Flyd win the Dauphine in 2002 as a clean rider or at a max on a testosterone patch? His claim is he only started doping at St.Moritz in June of 2002 at a pre-Tour training camp.

A massive 21 seconds in front of Christophe Moreau? Not sure you'd need to dope for that?

 

[pmcg76]

lance won it as you know full well

Well Armstrong was removed as official winner but regardless, was Floyd clean for that performance?

 

[sniper]

Did Flyd win the Dauphine in 2002 as a clean rider or at a max on a testosterone patch? His claim is he only started doping at St.Moritz in June of 2002 at a pre-Tour training camp.

i don't doubt we can still find inaccuracies/half truths in some of Floyd's statements.
It would be normal.
Even if you decide to tell the truth about some major issue, you may still decide to lie about certain contextual details.
In the case of Floyd, there's no reason to doubt the thrust of his story, even if we discover lies or halftruths in the context of his story.

Isn't he still in a legal battle with Mercury over unpaid salary?
Perhaps that's why he needs to say he was clean in that period.
Floyd never stopped being human, you know.
But I agree that this is a detail in his story that we should not necessarily take for granted as true.

 

[sniper]

Hi Digger,

I am reasonably confident that Floyd did make a statement to that effect about Ryder.

For a long time, I mentally filed stuff away about Ryder knowing that one day the truth would come out. Floyd's comment (or not) is simply a very minor point, however.

One of the problems with statements from Floyd, especially post his decision to 'tell the truth' is that it appeared that he was still not telling the whole truth.

After the years of on-line battles we had over the Floyd case, and its nonsense of biblical proportion (FFF = Flood, Famine and Frogs), I was content to pull back and not pursue the little lies. Thus, I never made a big deal about this at the time.

Unfortunately, those that cataloged everything Floyd could probably provide us with the Ryder (and Merckx) quotes. Alas, they don't appear to have ever been truly interested in the truth, let alone verifying it.

Dave.

no it's not.
If he said anything about Ryder being clean, that would be most noteworthy, because he would have no apparent reason to speak about that let alone lie about that, or make it up out of the blue.
If he actually said it, it's very likely that he has good reasons to believe Ryder was indeed clean.
So no, it's not a minor detail in the context of this thread, and it would be welcome if you could show where he said it.

 

[blackcat]

Hi Digger,

I am reasonably confident that Floyd did make a statement to that effect about Ryder.

For a long time, I mentally filed stuff away about Ryder knowing that one day the truth would come out. Floyd's comment (or not) is simply a very minor point, however.

One of the problems with statements from Floyd, especially post his decision to 'tell the truth' is that it appeared that he was still not telling the whole truth.

After the years of on-line battles we had over the Floyd case, and its nonsense of biblical proportion (FFF = Flood, Famine and Frogs), I was content to pull back and not pursue the little lies. Thus, I never made a big deal about this at the time.

Unfortunately, those that cataloged everything Floyd could probably provide us with the Ryder (and Merckx) quotes. Alas, they don't appear to have ever been truly interested in the truth, let alone verifying it.

Dave.

Digger, i second D-Queued, if only cos of his aphorism about marginal gains not being a rounding error on a Ferrari program.

but in all seriousness, i believe i remember this too, tho, i need to stress, it may be an implanted or false memory. Or the apocryphal anecdote had its own legs and momentum.

 

[sniper]

Digger, i second D-Queued, if only cos of his aphorism about marginal gains not being a rounding error on a Ferrari program.

but in all seriousness, i believe i remember this too, tho, i need to stress, it may be an implanted or false memory. Or the apocryphal anecdote had its own legs and momentum.

If landis ever said such a thing wouldn't jv and hesjedal have been boasting about it?
Just saying...

 

[blackcat]

I am sure Floyd would be interested in your thoughts on him or if you had the balls to say this to him directly.

Secondly what lies did Floyd tell after he came clean?

lies? not overt lies. But Floyd still held alot in reserve. Coming clean? He came clean, but not a full and transparent truth. My caveat to this is, i would be a hypocrite if I held anyone to this account, everyone holds something back, and most of us tell ourselves small lies to get thru each day.

I think Floyd came clean, atleast, a version of clean, when his options ran out, and he decided to tell a fuller truth. But he had few options at this stage. He still had options. He did not have to tell the truth to the mostly ignorant public.

we still had a few ignorant folk along for the ride on DailyPeloton. Judge Hure, and dBrower, for two, RationalHead wisely recused himself when he smelled the odour from the Arnie Bakers and Will Geohgagens in the entourage.

I like Floyd, but I have few illusions. I stress however, i dont know the truth, and i know that is unattainable for me

 

[Digger]

Two people now think they heard it - and neither have any quote to back it up...it simply didn't happen - you both seem to be basing on it someone who made it up.

 

[Digger]

lies? not overt lies. But Floyd still held alot in reserve. Coming clean? He came clean, but not a full and transparent truth. My caveat to this is, i would be a hypocrite if I held anyone to this account, everyone holds something back, and most of us tell ourselves small lies to get thru each day.

I think Floyd came clean, atleast, a version of clean, when his options ran out, and he decided to tell a fuller truth. But he had few options at this stage. He still had options. He did not have to tell the truth to the mostly ignorant public.

we still had a few ignorant folk along for the ride on DailyPeloton. Judge Hure, and dBrower, for two, RationalHead wisely recused himself when he smelled the odour from the Arnie Bakers and Will Geohgagens in the entourage.

I like Floyd, but I have few illusions. I stress however, i dont know the truth, and i know that is unattainable for me

Give me even one example of lies he still told after coming clean, or where he held things back...the lack of options makes me laugh - he was told he would probably face prison time by coming clean...so this thing about having nothing to lose...

 

[blackcat]

If landis ever said such a thing wouldn't jv and hesjedal have been boasting about it?
Just saying...

that is p'raps how it got "legs".

but it is not a piece of trivia relevant for anyone outside the Clinic.

And Floyd's name attaches and carries a stench. You only see Phillipe Gaumond quoted wrt Moncoutie and Tombak inside the Clinic now.

my point, you are attaching a fallacy level of expectation on it. Folks now don't quote Landis as the arbiter of clean cyclists. Once you are popped, you dont get that validity.

 

[Digger]

Did Flyd win the Dauphine in 2002 as a clean rider or at a max on a testosterone patch? His claim is he only started doping at St.Moritz in June of 2002 at a pre-Tour training camp.

Does a breakaway being let go because Lance was leading ring a bell....where Floyd was in it.

 

[Digger]

that is p'raps how it got "legs".

but it is not a piece of trivia relevant for anyone outside the Clinic.

And Floyd's name attaches and carries a stench. You only see Phillipe Gaumond quoted wrt Moncoutie and Tombak inside the Clinic now.

my point, you are attaching a fallacy level of expectation on it. Folks now don't quote Landis as the arbiter of clean cyclists. Once you are popped, you dont get that validity.

why? you are hinting, along with D Q that he was less than honest - I want you to show examples of this after he confessed.

 

[blackcat]

Two people now think they heard it - and neither have any quote to back it up...it simply didn't happen - you both seem to be basing on it someone who made it up.

"may have". note my caveat.

I am thinking, it p'raps came about, by it being "made up". I cannot remember a direct quote. But it may have been a direct quote.

arent we just chasing our tails and running around in circles?

i dont think Hesjedal has ever been clean. I sincerely doubt Landis would have thought it, indeed and would have known otherwise.

 

[sniper]

More generally, I'd love to hear from those who think ryder won the giro clean what incentive they think ryder had to stop doping in the first place.

guys like basso and contactor got caught, so (in the absemce of other information, such as contadors results after his comeback) one could easily fathom them having learned their lesson, being afraid to get caught again, and thus now riding clean.
ryder never got caught.
So why would he stop?
Does anybody take the "doping made me go backwards" argument seriously?

 

[Digger]

"may have". note my caveat.

I am thinking, it p'raps came about, by it being "made up". I cannot remember a direct quote. But it may have been a direct quote.

arent we just chasing our tails and running around in circles?

i dont think Hesjedal has ever been clean. I sincerely doubt Landis would have thought it, indeed and would have known otherwise.

No not just Ryder - you implied strongly that Floyd withheld or wasn't totally honest with his confession - give me examples or one.

Secondly, you implied in an earlier post that you also had heard what D Q had seen or heard and were giving credence to it - so are you backing away from that now with the above?

 

[blackcat]

why? you are hinting, along with D Q that he was less than honest - I want you to show examples of this after he confessed.

are you reading everything literally? I am speaking rhetorically.

Note the appellation that is proscribed to Landis in the media!

disgraced Floyd Landis.

disgraced Lance Armstrong.

the MSM media never have done nuance, and the reader and consumer of the MSM have never demanded nuance.

My point, once he was guilty under the UCI and USADA code, he was always gonna be held up, and not be given a pulpit to speak. And still smeared by those idjits at Public Strategies and Bruyneel and Knaggs and Stapleton and Wiggins. That is why it was so pithy and brilliant the retort from Landis about Wiggins. It was Floyd genius.

 

[blackcat]

No not just Ryder - you implied strongly that Floyd withheld or wasn't totally honest with his confession - give me examples or one.

Secondly, you implied in an earlier post that you also had heard what D Q had seen or heard and were giving credence to it - so are you backing away from that now with the above?

no, I am quite confident that I came across it independently of D-Q. I may have come across it on the Clinic.

It may have been someone merely quoting an apocryphal second hand telling of Landis on Ryder.

You see, this is how memory works. And I have been quite transparent about my recall, and the fact that i cannot go to a Fairfax media article where Guinness has quoted Landis.

No, I cannot remember this type of memory. I have this very amorphous version, where my intuition indicates, I read something third hand retold on the Clinic forum, and this is how I came to this information.

But it is a bit rich you accusing me of smearing Landis. Accuse me of smearing British riders, which is quite common allegation towards me now, or smearing some other rider who has not yet provided a non-negative test.

Landis, I have been pretty damn fair to him, so this is a bit rich.

I have offered all the caveats one can possibly add.

 

[blackcat]

More generally, I'd love to hear from those who think ryder won the giro clean what incentive they think ryder had to stop doping in the first place.

guys like basso and contactor got caught, so (in the absemce of other information, such as contadors results after his comeback) one could easily fathom them having learned their lesson, being afraid to get caught again, and thus now riding clean.
ryder never got caught.
So why would he stop?
Does anybody take the "doping made me go backwards" argument seriously?

cleanish. not clean.

basso at least. contador, more careful, but not even cleanish imo

 

[blackcat]

"may have". note my caveat.

I am thinking, it p'raps came about, by it being "made up". I cannot remember a direct quote. But it may have been a direct quote.

arent we just chasing our tails and running around in circles?

i dont think Hesjedal has ever been clean. I sincerely doubt Landis would have thought it, indeed and would have known otherwise.

yo Digger, this last line above. i will requote, because I had an <unsaid>implication

i dont think Hesjedal has ever been clean. I sincerely doubt Landis would have thought it, indeed and would have known otherwise.

my unsaid to this final sentence was "so I would doubt Landis would have ever given such imprimatur to Hesjedal (especially when he may have held a resent about those given the wide berth and endorsement)"

 

[sniper]

you implied strongly that Floyd withheld or wasn't totally honest with his confession - give me examples or ?

I think this is besides the issue.
So what if he would have squeezed in a small lie or half truth in the margins of his confessiom? He's human.
I agree with pcmg that we should be skeptical of landis claim that he didn't dope pre_uspss.
The lie would be understandable in the context of his ongoing legal battle
e with mercury.
important thing is that it doesn't at any point reduce his overall credibility.
And if he, s ever said ryder was clean at phoneak, it would have credibility to me, because why would he speak about ryder at all let alone lie about that?
Thenagain, it seems he never spokeabout him.

 

[Digger]

no, I am quite confident that I came across it independently of D-Q. I may have come across it on the Clinic.

It may have been someone merely quoting an apocryphal second hand telling of Landis on Ryder.

You see, this is how memory works. And I have been quite transparent about my recall, and the fact that i cannot go to a Fairfax media article where Guinness has quoted Landis.

No, I cannot remember this type of memory. I have this very amorphous version, where my intuition indicates, I read something third hand retold on the Clinic forum, and this is how I came to this information.

But it is a bit rich you accusing me of smearing Landis. Accuse me of smearing British riders, which is quite common allegation towards me now, or smearing some other rider who has not yet provided a non-negative test.

Landis, I have been pretty damn fair to him, so this is a bit rich.

I have offered all the caveats one can possibly add.

I am not accusing you of anything - you made a claim that landis wasn't totally honest, that he withheld bits etc only a few posts ago - and I merely asked you for examples of where he was (1) not totally honest (2) withheld information (3) you do realise he had plenty to lose

You offered no caveat to the above claims.

The above claims you made were clearly generic and not based on ryder.

 

[blackcat]

I am not accusing you of anything - you made a claim that landis wasn't totally honest, that he withheld bits etc only a few posts ago - and I merely asked you for examples of where he was (1) not totally honest (2) withheld information (3) you do realise he had plenty to lose

You offered no caveat to the above claims.

The above claims you made were clearly generic and not based on ryder.

i dont have the record online where i could find the contradiction to prove my "feel". It is an intuition. And I made that pretty damn clear.

I said, the overarching narrative reads true. Lets call it "a truth". Heck, lets call it the truth.

I am also with others, in thinking that one does not just start doping in their early or mid 20s, or even late 20s or 30s like Wiggins when they see the dying of the light and refuse to go quietly.

I think athletes start doping earlier (and i am using rule of thumb, so feel free to poke holes in hyperbole and misread my rhetoric) and in the context of cycling, begin to dope at home, in the States, or in Aus, or NZ, or UK. I dont think you decide to dope on a whim when promised a ride at the TdF.

To me, Frankie Andreu is the exception that proves the rule.

I am not the NSA, I have not been bugging LAndis' or Baker's or Geohgagen's devices over the past 8 years. So I wont be able to catch out anyone in an incontrovertible example of mistruth.

 

[Digger]

i dont have the record online where i could find the contradiction to prove my "feel". It is an intuition. And I made that pretty damn clear.

I said, the overarching narrative reads true. Lets call it "a truth". Heck, lets call it the truth.

I am also with others, in thinking that one does not just start doping in their early or mid 20s, or even late 20s or 30s like Wiggins when they see the dying of the light and refuse to go quietly.

I think athletes start doping earlier (and i am using rule of thumb, so feel free to poke holes in hyperbole and misread my rhetoric) and in the context of cycling, begin to dope at home, in the States, or in Aus, or NZ, or UK. I dont think you decide to dope on a whim when promised a ride at the TdF.

To me, Frankie Andreu is the exception that proves the rule.

I am not the NSA, I have not been bugging LAndis' or Baker's or Geohgagen's devices over the past 8 years. So I wont be able to catch out anyone in an incontrovertible example of mistruth.

Yes, landis definitely left the amish/mennonite community at 20 or older and said right give me the drugs...I mean he struggled with newer cities but was ok with doping from the get go....

 

[blackcat]

I am sure Floyd would be interested in your thoughts on him or if you had the balls to say this to him directly.

Secondly what lies did Floyd tell after he came clean?

ok, I can give you one paradox, or quandary that has not been resolved to my satisfaction.

Landis said he did not use testo during that 2006 Tour.

But the isotope testing on his other samples, indicated it was present in his urine for other stages when he gave urine samples.

Now, the options this leaves: i) metabolites in his bloodbags (can any boffin answer if this is plausible)
or ii) Freddy Viane was mixing some testo solution with his massage oil
or iii) Floyd was indeed using a testo patch or some other testo application method
or iv) some other reason

the caveat is, the isotope retesting of urine, was legit, was indeed Floyd's 2006 tdf urine, and it was not tampered with or the results concocted in a lab. And there is miniscule, but not plausible chances of those reasons. But we wont go down the dBrower or Judge Hue rabbithole, or Arnie Baker rabbithole. no thnx