Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

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Jun 14, 2010
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without the comments that wiggins made about how it is normal to be cynical about tdf winners the artilce is more praising the scum than critiscsing him. Any wiggins fan reads that article he sees wiggins attacking all the bad dopers - landis rasmussen vino, and merely explains the lienders question with bailsfords answer.

You need to point out how wiggins said one has to be sceptical about TDf winners (what he is now) and top tt dominators (what he is now) and not just him critiscsing Vino (his name is not vino) , so it just looks like good ol wiggins attacking those evil european dopers, fighting for clean cycling and not Wiggins 2007 essentially attacking wiggins 2012 which is the point that needs to be made more than anything.
 
Jul 28, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
Lance getting friendly with Wiggo makes no sense. After all, Wiggo "Spit in the soup. The sport that pays him".

What is the reason again? I didn't quite catch your meaning.

What's inexplicable is Wiggins bigging up Armstrong.

On the one hand you have 'honest as the day is long' & indignantly clean Wiggo & on the other cyclings very own Prince of Darkness. what the hell is Wiggins playing at?

As regard Paul Kimmage he's saying as much as he can bearing in mind English & Welsh defamation law & Wiggins new found wealth which can be used to hire a phalanx of ruthless solicitors / barristers. I'm sure Kimmage thinks there is something very badly wrong with sky
 

mastersracer

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Jun 8, 2010
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In case people aren't reading through to the end...

"There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterday’s historic victory through anything other than talent and hard work" - Kimmage
 
Jun 10, 2010
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Inquitus said:
Given every winner since Lemond has almost certainly been doped, with the possible exceptions of Cadel and Wiggins, its very easy to make the assumption they too are doped, highly unfair, but human nature all the same.
What does EVERYBODY have against Sastre? The shadows hanging over him are not bigger than those hanging over Evans or Wiggins.
mastersracer said:
In case people aren't reading through to the end...

"There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterday’s historic victory through anything other than talent and hard work" - Kimmage
Kimmage means there's no evidence. We all agree on that. He's just asking some of the questions that Sky don't want asked.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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mastersracer said:
In case people aren't reading through to the end...

"There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterday’s historic victory through anything other than talent and hard work" - Kimmage

Of course not. It would be the biggest fraud otherwise ;)
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Excellent read. Someone had to say it, someone had to bring all that up, ask those questions. Props to Paul for doing so, and deftly.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Interesting excerpts from the article;

Kimmage said:
There is nothing to suggest that Bradley Wiggins achieved yesterday’s historic victory through anything other than talent and hard work. But at this time of glory, why does Team Sky leave itself open to insinuation by employing Leinders?

Kimmage said:
To be fair, the sport is unquestionably cleaner now than at any other time in its past but it seems a strange irony that the only time Wiggins has looked under pressure in this Tour was when he was asked about doping.

He seems to be a lot more optimistic about the sport than i would have anticipated.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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function said:
Interesting excerpts from the article;





He seems to be a lot more optimistic about the sport than i would have anticipated.
In all probability he's just trying to keep it balanced and as objective as an opinion piece can be to let the reader draw their own conclusions. I bet the optimistic bits in those quotes just mean "there's no hard evidence of doping at Sky yet" and "Watt numbers are more believable now than in the past", both of which we all would agree with.
 

mastersracer

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Jun 8, 2010
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I would be more interested in a serious article detailing the changes in Sky's training structure with the addition of Kerrison and the plausibility of Sky's performance, their results this year, etc. from that perspective. At least one leading sports scientist I know thinks their performance is explainable from those changes. The contrast between that training structure and that of a Tour rider I know (who is on a supposedly innovative team) is striking.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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hrotha said:
What does EVERYBODY have against Sastre? The shadows hanging over him are not bigger than those hanging over Evans or Wiggins.

I have to agree with you here.

hrotha said:
Kimmage means there's no evidence. We all agree on that. He's just asking some of the questions that Sky don't want asked.

Exactly. But the deniers will turn the comment around to "Anti-doping biased writer says Sky is clean." Which is not what's being said. At all.

The complications start as early as next year. Sky's backers can't do a FLandis to any of the riders who get an AAF after leaving. But they probably will because this is cycling after all... As loyalties shift over the next couple of years, I think the Sky doping program will be made public. And it will be interesting to see if British Cycling gets tainted with the scandal.
 
May 27, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
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Exactly. But the deniers will turn the comment around to "Anti-doping biased writer says Sky is clean." Which is not what's being said. At all.

...

Good point. Kimmage has again demonstrated journalistic skill in threading the needle.

Doubt has been seeded. That is enough. For now.

Dave.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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mastersracer said:
I would be more interested in a serious article detailing the changes in Sky's training structure with the addition of Kerrison and the plausibility of Sky's performance, their results this year, etc. from that perspective. At least one leading sports scientist I know thinks their performance is explainable from those changes. The contrast between that training structure and that of a Tour rider I know (who is on a supposedly innovative team) is striking.

PR team is working on that now. As soon as they can come up with a few reasons that will get Kimmage off their tail.
 
May 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
I would be more interested in a serious article detailing the changes in Sky's training structure with the addition of Kerrison and the plausibility of Sky's performance, their results this year, etc. from that perspective. At least one leading sports scientist I know thinks their performance is explainable from those changes. The contrast between that training structure and that of a Tour rider I know (who is on a supposedly innovative team) is striking.

You're so full of sh**.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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mastersracer said:
At least one leading sports scientist I know thinks their performance is explainable from those changes. The contrast between that training structure and that of a Tour rider I know (who is on a supposedly innovative team) is striking.

Is he his name Coyle? :rolleyes:
 
Jul 28, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
The complications start as early as next year. Sky's backers can't do a FLandis to any of the riders who get an AAF after leaving. But they probably will because this is cycling after all... As loyalties shift over the next couple of years, I think the Sky doping program will be made public. And it will be interesting to see if British Cycling gets tainted with the scandal.

I have a horrible feeling they're going to get away with it :mad:
 

mastersracer

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Jun 8, 2010
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thehog said:
Is he his name Coyle? :rolleyes:

Are training methods optimized?

Does current endurance performance represent the limit of human physiological capacity?

Can a team incorporate a training method that provides competitive advantage?

What value for watts/kg represent the highest physiologically 'plausible' one during a 3-week stage race?

Why aren't these questions as legitimate as suspicions of doping? I've said countless times that there is nothing wrong with suspicion based on base rates, which is what Kimmage is doing. But, I also don't see why Sky's training structure gets dismissed as a PR stunt so quickly.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Grand Tourist said:
I have a horrible feeling they're going to get away with it :mad:

This is Pro Cycling we're talking about. It might be air tight for a few years. Right now, the bromance is on hot and heavy. But this is Pro Cycling, so even if the UCI suppresses Sky positives, the wheels will still fall off.

It took a while, but they fell off the Armstrong train too.

Ed Coyle is cycling's Dr Spaceman: "Science is whatever we want it to be." There's a commercial leading into the clips. http://www.hulu.com/watch/95442
 
Apr 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
But, I also don't see why Sky's training structure gets dismissed as a PR stunt so quickly.

Because most here have seen and heard these claims before and they have turned out to be misleading to say the least.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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function said:
He seems to be a lot more optimistic about the sport than i would have anticipated.

Given the public sentiment in the UK (where people I previously regarded as rational seem to have totally lost the plot), the Daily Mail would certainly not dare to publish anything any more overtly critical. Given the libel laws in UK, you can never do more than leave people to join up the dots.

Within those constraints, I think that the article is a masterful piece. Kimmage is a real hero :)
 
Mar 10, 2009
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mastersracer said:
Are training methods optimized?

Does current endurance performance represent the limit of human physiological capacity?

Can a team incorporate a training method that provides competitive advantage?

What value for watts/kg represent the highest physiologically 'plausible' one during a 3-week stage race?

Why aren't these questions as legitimate as suspicions of doping? I've said countless times that there is nothing wrong with suspicion based on base rates, which is what Kimmage is doing. But, I also don't see why Sky's training structure gets dismissed as a PR stunt so quickly.

To answer at least part of your answer: yes, it is possible that current endurance performance is the limit of human capacity. However, looking at the build of Wiggins, it isn't that likely that it is him representing that limit, especially in the climbs.

The value for watts/kg isn't extremely high in this Tour, and could be believable. The problem is that they have four riders suddenly turning out those values, all four new to the scene on this level, with some having past mediocre or outright bad performances in the same conditions.

Also, I think it is very interesting that Cavendish doesn't seem to benefit from the training regime in Sky: he lost weight, but his sprint is arguably weaker now, specially in the first week. When everyone has suffered an equal amount during three weeks, his natural ability is coming back to him, but it is clear that losing weight didn't help him to climb. That's normal, one trades in one thing for another. Of course, it is possible to develop conflicting abilities at once, if one is new to cycling, or didn't train at 100% before. We see this a lot.

However, one has to wonder if Rogers is one of those guys, if Wiggins is one of those guys (with World titles and Olympic titles respectively).

Also, the new way isn't that new. All those talk about watt and riding to own limit is as old as cycling, as everyone will always ride to his limit (in everyone riding to GC, assuming cyclist give it all on the road and assuming one is not able to go over his limit for a long time in a single climb or over three weeks, if you want). Their arguments about new and scientific cycling are so thin that I can see through it.

I know for a fact that Samu Sanchez does exactly the same, with heart rate and power meters. He's always been a gifted cyclist, coming in 6th in LBL in 2003. We saw him develop as a sort of classics specialist with good performances in Zürich (RIP), the WC, Ardennes and Lombardia. Over the years, he transformed himself from classics rider to GC rider, using "scientific" ways. It took him years to do it, but he managed. It came at a cost though, he lost his explosiveness and his results in hilly races got worse (even when he's in good shape, just look at this year's Pays Vasco and the hilly classics after it). Thanks to power meters and wattages he knows how far he can go, which is obvious in a lot of climbs: he often drops at the beginning when pace is high, only to grind back and often get a good result in the end because he did it the "scientific" way.

With Sky though, it's different. Almost overnight the scientific program worked, with not one, but four riders. Riding using wattages apparently makes bad climbers good, without losing other attributes. Losing weight apparently has a positive effect on the flat TT abilities of a Olympic medalist. There's no logic, that's the problem.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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hrotha said:
Kimmage means there's no evidence. We all agree on that. He's just asking some of the questions that Sky don't want asked.

There's no evidence that would stand up in a sports arbitration (otherwise that's where it would be dealt with).

But there is some evidence (ie facts that point in a particular direction, even if not conclusive). I would include the hiring of Leinders, and the position of some of the Sky TdF team on the IUC 2010 Suspicious list (for those who don't know, scores of 5, 6, 7, and 8 for four of the team members).
 
Jun 15, 2009
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About limits: Does anyone know if Paul Koechli is still active/alive? AFIR, he said most cycling teams train the wrong way; that cyclists could improve dramatically w/o doping. If Sky had hired him, i´d trust them. Anyway, they hired Leinders... :rolleyes:
 
Apr 8, 2010
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mastersracer said:
But, I also don't see why Sky's training structure gets dismissed as a PR stunt so quickly.

So Sky are flogging their warm downs as an innovation?

Look, I am the least sporty person in the world, but even I have heard to warm downs. We had a fun run at work (walking allowed for those who didn't want to run), and there was even an organised warm-down after that :p

So when Sky wants to flog other practices as 'innovative' I use that as a yardstick as to what they call innovative. Which is why I dismiss most of what they say as a PR stunt.