Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

[Benotti69]

without the comments that wiggins made about how it is normal to be cynical about tdf winners the artilce is more praising the scum than critiscsing him. Any wiggins fan reads that article he sees wiggins attacking all the bad dopers - landis rasmussen vino, and merely explains the lienders question with bailsfords answer.

You need to point out how wiggins said one has to be sceptical about TDf winners (what he is now) and top tt dominators (what he is now) and not just him critiscsing Vino (his name is not vino) , so it just looks like good ol wiggins attacking those evil european dopers, fighting for clean cycling and not Wiggins 2007 essentially attacking wiggins 2012 which is the point that needs to be made more than anything.

I guess, although without proof, that the article may have been longer and harder, but subedited to what we read.

 

[Maxiton]

And I remember a mutual bromance coming back from Lance in post-race interviews. My guess? Sounds like Lance hooked him up.

+1. That's what I've been saying. I think it's likely that he first took Wiggins aside and 'splained to him how pro cycling works. Maybe he was surprised when Bradley listened . . . and eventually Bradley got the hookup. Who knows? It's all pure speculation, but one thing's for sure: their mutual bro-love.

On another note, I was glad to see the Kimmage article, and thought it fair and balanced to a fault, but you have to start somewhere, and Kimmage was the man to start it. Glad he did.


EDIT: Reading the Tom English article now.

 

[Benotti69]

+1. That's what I've been saying. I think it's likely that he first took Wiggins aside and 'splained to him how pro cycling works. Maybe he was surprised when Bradley listened . . . and eventually Bradley got the hookup. Who knows? It's all pure speculation, but one thing's for sure: their mutual bro-love.

Wiggins to triathlon, for his foundation awareness of course.

Maybe the bonded over their lack of a father, who knows.....

 

[D-Queued]

And I remember a mutual bromance coming back from Lance in post-race interviews. My guess? Sounds like Lance hooked him up.

+1. That's what I've been saying. ...

Anyone find any empty Hemassist bottles in the trash lately?

Dave.

 

[Maxiton]

Anyone find any empty Hemassist bottles in the trash lately?

Dave.

No one's been looking.

 

[Winterfold]

I would be more interested in a serious article detailing the changes in Sky's training structure with the addition of Kerrison and the plausibility of Sky's performance, their results this year, etc. from that perspective. At least one leading sports scientist I know thinks their performance is explainable from those changes. The contrast between that training structure and that of a Tour rider I know (who is on a supposedly innovative team) is striking.

This. When you actually listen to Kerrison cycling sounds completely *** in its attitude to training. Did they even know where their riders were? Half the peloton now doing warmdowns after taking the **** earlier in the season is hilarious. I thought Sky were full of ****e when they started out but it looks like they had a point. Were teams substituting doctors and dope for what seems like pretty basic stuff? I would be really interested in some serious investigation of this.

But Leinders... WTF are they doing? The question needs to be asked.

 

[blackcat]

Also, I think it is very interesting that Cavendish doesn't seem to benefit from the training regime in Sky: he lost weight, but his sprint is arguably weaker now, specially in the first week. When everyone has suffered an equal amount during three weeks, his natural ability is coming back to him, but it is clear that losing weight didn't help him to climb. That's normal, one trades in one thing for another. Of course, it is possible to develop conflicting abilities at once, if one is new to cycling, or didn't train at 100% before. We see this a lot.

this is dead wrong, sorry.

Cav used to have to hang on to team vehicles to conquer HC stages, and race officials and commissaires looked askew

Cav did not lose power in his sprints. See his final two sprints, recollect the San Remo win. He went from over 300 in both those final wins in the Tour, and without a slipstream leadout. He got up to his terminal velocity (circa 68kmph) himself. On both those occasions.

Cav has arguably lost 3 kgs, which allowed his "jump", acceleration, to be stronger, punchier, more efficient. Most was non-functional tissue from upper body.

You are conflating not being able to do the power climbs, like those in Flanders, in the first week of the tour, to his weight loss and climbing irrelevance. Wrong again. Cav is never gonna be a GC rider, a tt rider, a guy who can hand on any climb above a cat 1. He is a sprinter.

But his weight loss, looking to London, HAS helped his sprint too, as a side product, indirect one.

Dont forget, Cav lost all his support riders, for the flat stages, bar Bernie, but he still competed, still won the first stage sans train.

you need to revise your thesis above.

And to believe the British Cycling track team, prior to 2000, a decade ago, were clean, is ignorance. NO ONE is clean on the track neither. Come on. I think a US sociologisist at Penn State or some beltway college, put foreward an article on this, and said the statistics defy belief.

Just speak to Oxfor don Julian Savulescu, who wont bore you with weasal words, he will just call it as it is. Come on folks. Smell the ride for the roses

 

[stampedingviking]

Just one point to consider, the article is from the Daily Fail, one of the worst 'newspapers' in Britain.

 

[badboygolf16v]

This. When you actually listen to Kerrison cycling sounds completely *** in its attitude to training. Did they even know where their riders were? Half the peloton now doing warmdowns after taking the **** earlier in the season is hilarious. I thought Sky were full of ****e when they started out but it looks like they had a point. Were teams substituting doctors and dope for what seems like pretty basic stuff? I would be really interested in some serious investigation of this.

But Leinders... WTF are they doing? The question needs to be asked.

Are you joking about Kerrison?

Teams have always had sports scientists working with them. Always had trainers. And Tim Kerrison suddenly makes them look ***. I don't think so...

With you on Leinders of course.

 

[will10]

A very good article.

 

[Racelap]

Just one point to consider, the article is from the Daily Fail, one of the worst 'newspapers' in Britain.

Compared to what? The Murdoch owned rags? How's that phone hacking going?

PS - Can you guys PLEASE take back Piers Morgan?

 

[hrotha]

Just one point to consider, the article is from the Daily Fail, one of the worst 'newspapers' in Britain.

The article is written by a respected cycling journalist, and it doesn't say anything that wasn't already known to those who keep themselves informed about doping.

 

[sittingbison]

Reposted from sky thread

Bravo Paul Kimmage, no doubt he will be derided by his once faithful followers who will decry him tarnishing the gold of Team Sky, but he has succinctly encapsulated thousands of posts on a dozen threads here over the Tour, and hundreds of thousands of tweets.

And without the slightest disparagement, tin foil hat theory or personal vilification. Merely the question - what happened to Wiggos 2007 speech and Brailsfords zero tolerance policy.

He could have sunk the boot and included Mick Rogers, and a few choice words like Freiburg and Ferrari (mind you he DID mention Sinkovitz hehe), but hey, he has restraint and clarity of vision, a "less is more" mentality.

Again, Bravo Paul Kimmage, still carrying on the good fight in the face of adversity after all these years

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

This. When you actually listen to Kerrison cycling sounds completely *** in its attitude to training. Did they even know where their riders were? Half the peloton now doing warmdowns after taking the **** earlier in the season is hilarious. I thought Sky were full of ****e when they started out but it looks like they had a point. Were teams substituting doctors and dope for what seems like pretty basic stuff? I would be really interested in some serious investigation of this.

But Leinders... WTF are they doing? The question needs to be asked.

The *** part is that everyone is buying the angle that the entire peloton of pro riders must be "bone-idle w*nkers" that never figured out how to train properly.

Cummon! Teams with multi-million euro budgets are hiring choads out of club level, and haven't spent their investment dollars making sure they can perform?

These are racers. They want to do as well as they can. They aren't trying to ditch training for whatever fills our time. They are trying to KILL IT!

Christ! Even at 17 years old I was only taking two weeks off the bike in the off season, and that was decades ago.

The sad part is that sketchy pros can spout this trash, and people actually believe it. It's like Lim with his "rice cake and beet juice" answer, LA with his "cadence" answer, and Sky with their "weight loss" answer.

They're not working harder or smarter, that road has been ridden down. By trying to say they're doing something different they're denigrating the whole value and history of cycling.

They're trying to say everyone else is a soft-assed lay-about, and should be working harder.

They are sticking their finger in the eye of the peloton, and I hope the peloton comes out fighting.

 

[BroDeal]

Were teams substituting doctors and dope for what seems like pretty basic stuff? I would be really interested in some serious investigation of this.

Slipstream has been doing all this stuff for years. The problem is that the team only seems to have enough marginal gains for one rider per year. How the team chooses who the lucky rider will be is unknown. Perhaps they play cards for it at the beginning of the season.

 

[thehog]

The *** part is that everyone is buying the angle that the entire peloton of pro riders must be "bone-idle w*nkers" that never figured out how to train properly.

Cummon! Teams with multi-million euro budgets are hiring choads out of club level, and haven't spent their investment dollars making sure they can perform?

These are racers. They want to do as well as they can. They aren't trying to ditch training for whatever fills our time. They are trying to KILL IT!

Christ! Even at 17 years old I was only taking two weeks off the bike in the off season, and that was decades ago.

The sad part is that sketchy pros can spout this trash, and people actually believe it. It's like Lim with his "rice cake and beet juice" answer, LA with his "cadence" answer, and Sky with their "weight loss" answer.

They're not working harder or smarter, that road has been ridden down. By trying to say they're doing something different they're denigrating the whole value and history of cycling.

They're trying to say everyone else is a soft-assed lay-about, and should be working harder.

They are sticking their finger in the eye of the peloton, and I hope the peloton comes out fighting.

The dopers mind is fragile. They would hate to think that anybody and including themselves that it's its anything else but their talent that makes them winners. Anger overcomes them at the suggestion that their performances are anything but hardwork. Dope just helps them display what's naturally already there.

Thats how they actually think.

Long term dopers get depressed. They forgot what their natural self is.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The dopers mind is fragile. They would hate to think that anybody and including themselves that it's its anything else but their talent that makes them winners. Anger overcomes them at the suggestion that their performances are anything but hardwork. Dope just helps them display what's naturally already there.

Thats how they actually think.

Long term dopers get depressed. They forgot what their natural self is.

Oh, I know. I know....

Almost walked down that path myself.

Saw a couple of team mates actually vanish after getting popped, one who topped himself and another who just wandered off into the sunset of non-cycling life.

The crazy aggressive self-talk is what does it, coupled with the secrecy. They could never really have a tight team mate or friend, could never tell anyone what they were doing, could never feel good about what they did; all the while trying to tell themselves that "it's okay, everyone must be doing it", I must HAVE to do this to make it...

Tragic, sad, and cheating. That's why I hate it so much. There's young guys that want to pursue this, that have talent and gifts, and they MUST be able to do it on their own merits.

Whew! That sort of sucked...

 

[thehog]

Oh, I know. I know....

Almost walked down that path myself.

Saw a couple of team mates actually vanish after getting popped, one who topped himself and another who just wandered off into the sunset of non-cycling life.

The crazy aggressive self-talk is what does it, coupled with the secrecy. They could never really have a tight team mate or friend, could never tell anyone what they were doing, could never feel good about what they did; all the while trying to tell themselves that "it's okay, everyone must be doing it", I must HAVE to do this to make it...

Tragic, sad, and cheating. That's why I hate it so much. There's young guys that want to pursue this, that have talent and gifts, and they MUST be able to do it on their own merits.

Whew! That sort of sucked...

Cheers. I'm glad you know it also. In fact you can almost pick "the look". They way they are and the behaviours. Walk around like they're invincible and talk in code and drop hints before race about breaking it part - "Are you going to bump it today Freddy? you know give it a bump?". I generally pick it a mile off.

I'd also hear anti-doping speeches as a guy would be jamming a needle into his thigh followed by quaffing a load of blue pills.

They actually thought they weren't taking drugs. They'd scoff at Pro's who were taking drugs. "I'd never be like that".

One team mate confessed to me: "I don't care what people think. As long as my mum never finds out" !

Those were the days. A long time ago.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Cheers. I'm glad you know it also. In fact you can almost pick "the look". They way they are and the behaviours. Walk around like they're invincible and talk in code and drop hints before race about breaking it part - "Are you going to bump it today Freddy? you know give it a bump?". I generally pick it a mile off.

I'd also hear anti-doping speeches as a guy would be jamming a needle into his thigh followed by quaffing a load of blue pills.

They actually thought they weren't taking drugs. They'd scoff at Pro's who were taking drugs. "I'd never be like that".

One team mate confessed to me: "I don't care what people think. As long as my mum never finds out" !

Those were the days. A long time ago.

Perhaps not that long ago.

That's why I got so cranky with the Skypologists regarding Basso's comments (and Smyzd's). Those guys know what's going on, and not from a naive virginal stand-point.

 

[simo1733]

Basso and Wiggins were chatting away like best buddies on the stage into Paris.

 

[Stingray34]

Interesting article on the sad life and demise of Wiggins Snr

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...-father-took-a-wrong-turn-20120723-22kqg.html

Brad inherited the cycling talent, that much is sure, but perhaps also the taste for the drink and self-destruction given his previous admission he was 'virtually an alcoholic' after one Olympic games. Note also Dad's fondness for 'speed'.

 

[mastersracer]

Perhaps not that long ago.

That's why I got so cranky with the Skypologists regarding Basso's comments (and Smyzd's). Those guys know what's going on, and not from a naive virginal stand-point.

funny how the 'experts' who interpreted Basso as condemning Wiggins haven't commented on Basso's tweet:

"Honneur,respect,admiration pour @bradwiggins Exemple merveilleux de comment volonté et détermination savent transformer un homme en jaune."

 

[Franklin]

funny how the 'experts' who interpreted Basso as condemning Wiggins haven't commented on Basso's tweet:

"Honneur,respect,admiration pour @bradwiggins Exemple merveilleux de comment volonté et détermination savent transformer un homme en jaune."

Of course, everyone was egging Riis when he was on the podium even when they hinted in the odd interview (Mr. 60%)

It truly is a bit annoying that there is this thing called history that has exactly the same moves and actions.... but hey, we are absolutely crackpot for seeing smoke and demanding answers. Really, how dare we question the winner of the TdF and a team that employs a dodgy doctor! How dare we! Wiggins himself never would have had that doubt!c

Btw, Masterracer, did you answer yet my question about your strawmen?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

funny how the 'experts' who interpreted Basso as condemning Wiggins haven't commented on Basso's tweet:

"Honneur,respect,admiration pour @bradwiggins Exemple merveilleux de comment volonté et détermination savent transformer un homme en jaune."

Nicely done mastersracer, you've proven you're not only irritating in English, but can miss the niceties of French vis-a-vis Basso's tweet...

Nothing like "sacrifice and dedication can transform a man in yellow".

Enough...

 

[mastersracer]

Of course, everyone was egging Riis when he was on the podium even when they hinted in the odd interview (Mr. 60%)

It truly is a bit annoying that there is this thing called history that has exactly the same moves and actions.... but hey, we are absolutely crackpot for seeing smoke and demanding answers. Really, how dare we question the winner of the TdF and a team that employs a dodgy doctor! How dare we! Wiggins himself never would have had that doubt!c

Btw, Masterracer, did you answer yet my question about your strawmen?

I think it's fine if you want to question Wiggins and demand transparency. I'm not even a Sky or Wiggins fan. I am interested in one question: can Sky (and others) performance be quantified via metrics that allow comparisons across cohorts, and, if so, what implications follow from that? If there is no way to statistically distinguish a doped performance from a non-doped one, then anti-doping policies have achieved a major victory. That's not grounds for inferring a rider is not doped, but it does indicate the playing field has been somewhat leveled and has reduced the efficacy of doping protocols whereby gifted riders plus innovative training programs can compete with doped riders. Sorry, but that's the real functional goal of anti-doping policies.