Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

[shojii]

I just got back from the bathroom and saw the latest developments in this thread. Spooky synchronicity!

 

[python]

andy, please take a deep breath

What a sad way to live.

may i suggest that you address the message rather than your bizarre assumptions about a messenger…a person you never met, knew or communicated with. what a sad way to go through life just because some internet poster is not agreeable..

I very much doubt you call people scum to their faces. The internet really is perfect for cowards like you.

andy, my dear, please relax…i’d venture to call your posting (pls note i did not lavish you with the term you unjustly threw at benotti, though, by my reckoning, it would be more appropriate for you), yes, i’d venture to call your posting spineless. The reason ? You jab and run. you never stay around long enough to engage into a man-o-man exchange of opinions (and it is not about wasting testosterone !) . and yes, if you faced me on the street with such tactics it would not be pretty…i mean i'd want to hear the explanation.

Its masturbation.

andy, andy, andy…

please keep your deeper thoughts away from the cycling forum….

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

what do you have against onanism JimmyFingers?

When Brits are on TV he's more stickyfingers than Jimmyfingers. Froome wasn't the only one waving one hand furiously up and down at Wiggins this summer

 

[veganrob]

I just got back from the bathroom and saw the latest developments in this thread. Spooky synchronicity!

Beatin' the bishop, eh.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Krebs Cycle raised this example, like the l'Avenir stage and other examples to "prove" that either
1. Wiggins always had it (debunked)
2. Wiggins has not improved (debunked)

Yes yes we know, you debunked the laws of physics. You're very clever indeed. Good for you.

I'm dying to hear more about your debunking of altitude training btw. When are you going to start a thread on that?

 

[Krebs cycle]

1. A CdA of 0.24 m^2 is certainly believable for a rider of Wiggin's height and mass - see http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2011/04/estimation-of-cda-from-anthropometric.html

2. Most people are able to reduce their CdA by 0.01 m^2 the first time they get into a wind tunnel. At some point, though, it becomes very difficult to achieve further significant gains (at which you build your own wind tunnel to aid in seeking further marginal gains).

Something that I am interested in though is the effect of hip flexion on leg blood flow. I remember reading a paper once about speed skaters having a problem since the femoral artery gets "kinked" hence increasing leg vascular resistance. The AIS track cycling guys also told me once that the TT position tends to be less efficient overall (ie: sitting forward with greater hip extension) but is better for power production. So you would expect a trackie to be comfortable in that position, but I wonder how long it takes to become comfortable in a position that is more efficient (hence better for long ITTs) and furthermore, is the position which happens to be the most efficient energetically the same as the most aerodynamic? That is a potential trade off that might take more time to get right than just doing wind tunnel testing alone. So maybe it's not ALL just about position and Cda but the interaction with some other factors that could affect performance??

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes yes we know, you debunked the sophistry of Krebs Cycle. You're very clever indeed. Good for you.

FTFY.

I'm dying to hear more about your debunking of altitude training btw. When are you going to start a thread on that?

We started getting into it here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18691&page=3 (referenced a bunch of studies you might enjoy).

Perhaps you'd like to clarify what your mate armchairclimber meant here:

The way I have understood this, with regards to Wiggins, is that

6. No way round this...training on long steep hills at altitude to add the peak to the aerobic base.

Not LHTL, but actually training on steep mountains, at altitude, adds to Wiggins peak something or other.

Go.

 

[Parrulo]

fellas. . . masturbation really?

please tone it down a bit with the personal attacks

 

[JimmyFingers]

When Brits are on TV he's more stickyfingers than Jimmyfingers. Froome wasn't the only one waving one hand furiously up and down at Wiggins this summer

Are you ten or something?

 

[andy1234]

may i suggest that you address the message rather than your bizarre assumptions about a messenger…a person you never met, knew or communicated with. what a sad way to go through life just because some internet poster is not agreeable..

Remind me what the messengers important statement is again? Wiggins is Scum?
OK, I addressed it.

BTW, I have just alerted the guinness book of world records, they would be interested in talking to you about the new record you just set for Irony.

Did you really just criticise me for making assumptions about "…a person you never met, knew or communicated with"

Priceless.

andy, my dear, please relax…i’d venture to call your posting (pls note i did not lavish you with the term you unjustly threw at benotti, though, by my reckoning, it would be more appropriate for you), yes, i’d venture to call your posting spineless. The reason ? You jab and run. you never stay around long enough to engage into a man-o-man exchange of opinions (and it is not about wasting testosterone !) . and yes, if you faced me on the street with such tactics it would not be pretty…i mean i'd want to hear the explanation.….

An intenet exchange is man-o-man? Pleeease. You need to look up from the keyboard my friend.

Just to clarify, are you offering to meet "me on the street" with something that "would not be pretty" Maybe you could clarify exactly what you mean?
Will Benotti be with you? Should I bring Brad to the street with me?

How exciting.

andy, andy, andy…

please keep your deeper thoughts away from the cycling forum….

I appreciate you thinking that it is a deep thought, but really it isn't.
I will explain it to you and anyone else who struggles with anything above basic english.

Posting on here is a form of mast***** for some. The only purpose is self gratification and release, in a safe virtual environment.
Truth and honesty are not the priority, self indulgence, is.

Defend the messenger all you like, but for some including Bennoti, its undoubtedly true.

 

[Bumeington]

Nowhere, and I mean absolutely nowhere, am I assuming Cancellara's power is constant. I am simply comparing their speeds and showing the relative power difference between the two riders is diminishing - significantly.

Krebs Cycle raised this example, like the l'Avenir stage and other examples to "prove" that either
1. Wiggins always had it (debunked)
2. Wiggins has not improved (debunked)

So if you have an issue with the example provided, have a chat with him.

I just mean if Wig closes the gap to Canc that can be a combination of one getting faster and one getting slower (which I believe to be the case since Canc didn't have the best build up to the Tour

 

[RownhamHill]

I just mean if Wig closes the gap to Canc that can be a combination of one getting faster and one getting slower (which I believe to be the case since Canc didn't have the best build up to the Tour

Or indeed it could be the case that one remains exactly the same speed, while the other either gets much quicker, or much slower in comparison.

Or they both get quicker, but one of them increases their speed by a larger degree (though obviously in absolute terms he's still going slower).

Or they both got slower, but one's reduction in speed was more marked, which narrowed the gap (though again, in absolute terms, this time the guy with the bigger reduction is still going quicker).

All of which scenarios tells a different story, with a different set of plausible explanations to consider.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Moderators do your job

How come 'tits and ***' gets sanctioned and yet masturbation slanging matches are allowed to continue ?

Is masturbation on topic for this thread ? and how could it ever relate to a topic in the clinic ? unless it was to discuss performance enhancement or hinderance ?

 

[D-Queued]

Hoping to shift back to reasoned dialog...

Ah, forget it. I am going to post in the Sky thread instead.

Dave.

 

[Snafu352]

Since all of the sky firings....are you still yawning?

Yep.
If you read anything i've posted i've said all along i don't know whether Sky have a doping program (problem) or not.
The firings don't really add anything to our knowledge, unless you count speculation pandering to the posters particular prejudices or obsession as knowledge. In fact in some ways the firing could be viewed as de-bunking all the speculation and un-substantiated assertations that Sky definately dope.
Smoking gun it is not.
So sorry nothing to see here.

 

[Tom375]

Hoping to shift back to reasoned dialog...

Ah, forget it. I am going to post in the Sky thread instead.

Dave.

That's just as bad it's currently a DULL dialogue about the geography of Kilburn and Maida Vale unfortunately its being going on for about 50 posts which i have to confess i let myself down and contributed one of.

 

[Burnette]

Don't Believe Your Lying Eyes? Doping Contiues Today, Will Tommorrow

When we see someone going through an experience, we tend to put ourselves in their place and belive that they would behave and react as we would. Which is pooey, each person turns in their own way. It's hard for some of us to belive that a good man or woman would choose to do something wrong, against their beliefs and against the law. Truth is we are all different like snowflakes and all the snowflakes have their own flaws in them.
Media and foes alike accused Armstrong of doping. "Really?", I said to myself. He is constantly tested, has founded an awesome foundation and has the eyes of the world (and especially the French I tell ya!) upon him. He was winning and the scrutiny was fierce, surely he was clean. Look at what he had to lose. Ah, but look at what he gained.
Floyd Landis was on the verge of losing the Tour, he needed a heroic effort. He knew he would be tested for sure after the stage, surely he was clean. What? After all this turmoil with doping and still he tries it?
Contador was the futrue of Pro Cycling (still bears that title, how tragic) and knew he would be tested during the race, surely he was clean. He seemingly effortlessly climbed, standing on the pedals climbing for very long periods, looking as if he was just doing easy base training in a spin class. After Landis, surely he wouldn't even try to dope, would he? The test, did he think he could get by?
I see Levi all over my cycling mags endorsing products for big manufacturers and he is the face of Pro Cycling in America, surely he was clean. I mean, he was a very good Pro Cyclist, not a great one, so he didn't dope, right? He got away with it for so many years.
From the group at the local club ride all the way to the Pro Peleton, George Hincapie was considered a stand up guy, a loyal team mate, a warrior. Even after all the court drama when Armstrong retired and the accusations of the Postal team doping, surely he would stop now, right? He admitted to doping with EPO in August. This August. Three months ago.
Hate Lance and hold up your "clean" heros past or present if you want to. The fact is that a Pro Cyclist is training and doping today right now and will continue to do so during the next TDF in 2013 is sadly a fact. The fact that even though all of these (and many more) still doped amid all the constant testing and observation is proof that the testing can't catch them all. If done right you can still dope and still pass the drug test today. Ask yourself why any of them would even dare chance it today if they didn't feel confident that they had a fair shot at getting away with it. It worked years ago, it worked last year, it worked this July in the 2012 Tour De France. If anyone is honestly shocked when a top rider tests positive from this day forward, I say all you had to do was believe what you have already seen with your own eyes.

 

[Tom375]

Pooey snowflakes - are you for real??

 

[Burnette]

Wow

Sad that today many don't care to read more than a few sentences and then even sadder when in their mind a post comes out jumbled like "pooey snowflakes". If that's what you got out of my post, move on, I can't help you.

 

[Escarabajo]

For some people, the next decade is a write-off. No matter who wins what between now and say 2022, there are people here who would never believe in performances. It's sad but for them, there is no joy left to be had in cycling.

So it is now our fault for not believeing in clean cycling. Never mind any of the scandals in the last 10 years.

 

[Tom375]

Sad that today many don't care to read more than a few sentences and then even sadder when in their mind a post comes out jumbled like "pooey snowflakes". If that's what you got out of my post, move on, I can't help you.

I had read the rest of it - everyone has always doped, and everyone always will -agreed it is impossible to know who's doping and who's not ...
However only pooey and snowflakes caught my attention as something worth comment. I was wrong shouldn't have bothered..

 

[D-Queued]

Sad that today many don't care to read more than a few sentences and then even sadder when in their mind a post comes out jumbled like "pooey snowflakes". If that's what you got out of my post, move on, I can't help you.

A new day, and a new Forum definition.

I got this part out of your post:

... If anyone is honestly shocked when a top rider tests positive from this day forward, I say all you had to do was believe what you have already seen with your own eyes.

No kidding.

In fact, here we have a positive EPO test from a former Armstrong teammate from August 29.

Nothing like sticking with the (doping) program.

Dave.

 

[Krebs cycle]

We started getting into it here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18691&page=3 (referenced a bunch of studies you might enjoy).
.

Awesome! More comedy gold from you in that thread.

You cherry pick a handful of studies and in the space of about 10mins you totally debunk altitude training and all its variants!! Damn somebody better get their outrage-o-meter dialed up to max because since those studies were conducted the AIS has spent literally millions on altitude training camps, LHTL, LLTH and dozens of research studies ALL paid for by your tax dollars. But obviously the many world leading experts working there haven't got a clue. If only they had consulted with you first, you could have told them that their own research shows that it doesn't even work!

For the sake of the country and all of us taxpayers, I think you better write to the Minister for Sport and inform her that OUR tax dollars are being wasted on useless research and that the AIS is using altitude training to hide a massive doping conspiracy.

But wait, I thought you were Australia's leading anti-doping crusader? Why haven't you used your uber sleuth skillz to uncover this AIS doping conspiracy yet? There can only be one conclusion..... YOU are in league with the AIS dopers, but you use this alias on cyclingnews as a rouse to hide your real intentions..... just like Team Sky, you pretend to be anti-doping, but you remain silent on the biggest doping fraud in Australian sports history, so you MUST be a doper. Perhaps you are Ferrari's long lost Australian born nephew??

 

[Krebs cycle]

Yep.
If you read anything i've posted i've said all along i don't know whether Sky have a doping program (problem) or not.
The firings don't really add anything to our knowledge, unless you count speculation pandering to the posters particular prejudices or obsession as knowledge. In fact in some ways the firing could be viewed as de-bunking all the speculation and un-substantiated assertations that Sky definately dope.
Smoking gun it is not.
So sorry nothing to see here.

+1. About the most sensible post on the topic anyone has made and something that I wholeheartedly agree with. They made a mistake by being relaxed on their stated policy which has left them open to criticism, but the current purge can be seen simply as getting strict on that policy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I just mean if Wig closes the gap to Canc that can be a combination of one getting faster and one getting slower (which I believe to be the case since Canc didn't have the best build up to the Tour

As I said:

Wiggins employees or fanboys or whatever trot out examples of his performances - compared to the marque or not - as a means to defend his incredibly dominant 2012 and order of magnitude leap in 2009 as being "normal" because he always had it or "clean" because he didn't improve all that much compared to rider XYZ.

"HERE IS AN EXAMPLE THAT PROVES BRAD IS CLEAN!"

And EACH TIME. It is very simple to show that the explanation or what have you is flawed or plain wrong.

This is yet another example. This time, Krebs Cycle guesses someone's CdA based on someone else's CdA based on the weight he thinks a rider is being similar to someone else's weight, plugs them into a calculator on a website and says "LOOK! NORMAL! CLEAN!".

A book of assumptions and noone bats an eyelid.

Noone disagrees. If I pointed out that on that very same calculator website Krebs Cycle used, Brad is estimated to have done 480W for 64 minutes, in the final Tour 2012 TT, everyone would throw up their hands and say "THAT'S NOT RIGHT!"

I use the exact same example, do a more reliable calc based on actual speed differences, and all of a sudden everyone else jumps in and says "THIS EXAMPLE IS NO GOOD!"

Please. Give me another example. I'm writing a book called "The Wiggins Performance Fallacy".