Kimmage on Wiggins, Sky

[Benotti69]

Please could you outline exactly how this screams doping?

Brailsford declared they wouldn't hire people with these associations. Lie.

When people lie in pro cycling it can only mean one thing. Every cycling fan with their eyes open and an unbiased view knows this.

I get the "well they hired 3 people who have an association or have been caught in the past" bit but beyond that rather obvious and simple "revelation" and the fact that to do that they must have thrown away their original declaration what exactly "screams doping?"

Neither of the 3 I named have made declarations of being anti-doping. I cannot I find it on the TeamSky website. Remember they were going to do it clean and with full transparency.

Do you have the performance data and training data that will show exactly how the dope has improved the riders performances magically in too short a space of time?

Do you? Why does ASO have it and not the public?

Or are you basing your assessment on "gosh they are climbing faster than i thought they would and perhaps i don't really like Wiggins / insert as appropriate here"?

I am basing my assesment on what i saw, that Brailsford stated categorically on the record and produced a tome to back those declarations and blatently ignored their own declarations

I'm trying to get to the bottom of your scientific approach to the situation to understand the substantial evidence that you possess that enables you and others to make your statements of "fact" with such certainty.

In case you need any facts about the sport we are talking abuot, you will find a lot to show you that this sport needs full transparency from a team declaring itself to be clean, otherwise the fact is it is just words and words in pro cycling mean absolutely nothing whether they are written in an anti doping tome or not!

Find lots of facts here - http://www.dopeology.org

No facts in there about TeamSky, oh apart from TeamSky's Yates, and Possoni.

But hey who cares? Without 'scientific' facts you will declare them the cleanest winner ever and get down on one knee in front of Sir Brad Wiggins wont you.

I am sorry that you only see Wiggins and Sky as clean and not Garmin or others, which declares your sole fan biased interest in seeing only what you want to see.

 

[TheGeneral]

A simple quesiton that has been answered.

Apparently you and others don't like the answer. Diddums.

To express suspicion and a degree of un-comfortableness with the situation is one thing, to post page after page of innuedo without substance is sad and boring.

Heck i'm not comfortable with the situation in cycling at present but i'm not getting my tin foil hat on either.

To those "experts" and "senior members" who will almost definitely tell me i just don't know what they "know" but they couldn't possibly name names or events, your contribution is worthless without substance.
More worryingly if you are not prepared to name names and events yet claim to have this knowledge then you are part of and perpetrating the problem.

Explain this. How does a "clean" ???? Wiggins finish only 37 seconds behind an undoubtedly charged up Lance Armstrong in the final general classification of the 2009 Tour De France. With "Mr. Poison" Frank Schleck a further 3 second's behind Wiggins.

 

[Caruut]

As much as I find David Millar a bit hard to trust, any team that is willing to hire Mick Rogers but not Millar is one that cares more about looking clean than being clean.

 

[D Avoid]

Oh, I know. I know....

Almost walked down that path myself.

Saw a couple of team mates actually vanish after getting popped, one who topped himself and another who just wandered off into the sunset of non-cycling life.

The crazy aggressive self-talk is what does it, coupled with the secrecy. They could never really have a tight team mate or friend, could never tell anyone what they were doing, could never feel good about what they did; all the while trying to tell themselves that "it's okay, everyone must be doing it", I must HAVE to do this to make it...

Tragic, sad, and cheating. That's why I hate it so much. QUOTE]

I know of ,and out of respect I wont name him, one former british champion who drank himself to death for very much these reasons. A very sad and tragic loss.

Darryl, alcoholics take chances like that every day, who do you think all the failed breath testers are, his choice didn't make him drink. His drinking and choices were part of the same reckless lifestyle that is led by people who have unresolved issues in, usually, childhood. So nothing could repair that damage done in youth, not even being the champion, because he was unworthy. I'm talking about everybody who has ever been scarred like that in history, some manage while other more sensitive souls surrender to the depts that the depravity led them to. So an individual with these experiences who overcomes the situation, apparently, then goes to the pinnacle of his chosen field, will suffer the consequences of that success and fame. This is almost always the case because the draw of fame and feeling of inadequacy are mutually guaranteed to drive you insane, which is one definition of alcoholism. This is all very sad but pretty much the pattern of winners anyway. It is not a reflection on them as much as it is on our need to see these chariot racers fighting to the death from the comfort of our arm chairs!!

 

[TheGeneral]

To those "experts" and "senior members" who will almost definitely tell me i just don't know what they "know" but they couldn't possibly name names or events, your contribution is worthless without substance.
More worryingly if you are not prepared to name names and events yet claim to have this knowledge then you are part of and perpetrating the problem.

These "experts" and "senior members" that You refer to are intelligent people.

 

[noddy69]

Darryl, alcoholics take chances like that every day, who do you think all the failed breath testers are, his choice didn't make him drink. His drinking and choices were part of the same reckless lifestyle that is led by people who have unresolved issues in, usually, childhood. So nothing could repair that damage done in youth, not even being the champion, because he was unworthy. I'm talking about everybody who has ever been scarred like that in history, some manage while other more sensitive souls surrender to the depts that the depravity led them to. So an individual with these experiences who overcomes the situation, apparently, then goes to the pinnacle of his chosen field, will suffer the consequences of that success and fame. This is almost always the case because the draw of fame and feeling of inadequacy are mutually guaranteed to drive you insane, which is one definition of alcoholism. This is all very sad but pretty much the pattern of winners anyway. It is not a reflection on them as much as it is on our need to see these chariot racers fighting to the death from the comfort of our arm chairs!!

Thats a new definition to me. I thought it was a disease where the chemical make up of the brain was altered through alcohol and addiction the result. Thats the normal one rather than any draw of fame or inadequacy. Those side affects are usually due to the alcoholism not the reason for it....just thought id say that.

 

[rainman]

Given every winner since Lemond has almost certainly been doped, with the possible exceptions of Cadel and Wiggins, its very easy to make the assumption they too are doped, highly unfair, but human nature all the same.

You saying the winners before Lemond were clean? Ever hear of Jacques Anquetil, Ocana, Fignon? and loads more. They were the more tech ones. Prior to Anq they were on the same stuff they gave race horses.
The only trouble I have with Kimmage was the mock naievety when he arrived in France. He must have known. When I was a schoolboy rider down at the old Crystal Palace track, early sixties, we all knew the continental pros were on the stuff. (and probably the amateurs aswell). Sorry I've gone a bit off topic. Sky? I'll stick with innocent until proven guilty, one of the saving graces of living in a civilised country.

 

[D Avoid]

Thats a new definition to me. I thought it was a disease where the chemical make up of the brain was altered through alcohol and addiction the result. Thats the normal one rather than any draw of fame or inadequacy. Those side affects are usually due to the alcoholism not the reason for it....just thought id say that.

"the normal one"

What? Insanity is the definition with regard to repeating an action while expecting a different out come. The fame/inadequacy is what stokes the internal fire, it is temporarily perfect at doing its job, but next week it requires more to get the effect, which will never replicate the original buzz.You think the "experts" have the definitive definition!! Alcohol is a pain killer. The reason the individual chooses this method of killing the pain is because it is instant, though it never works next day as the over hang sets in and shadows you until you take the next cure for all your problems!!



If you understood what I was talking about you would not have dragged the rest of the bolded sentence before "insane" into your argument. It is universally held that to know and understand properly you must first experience. This has proven itself to me time and again!!

 

[Franklin]

Apparently you and others don't like the answer. Diddums.

Check the Geert leinders thread and then come back to us saying you think an expert coach like him was hired for "saddle sores". i'll give you a little help: his expertise is human fysiology, not mundane medic like treatment of sores, nor is he an expert on heat performance. And no that's not what I make up, it's what he studied for, got promoted for, wrote books about and certainly markets himself for. He does not market himself as "Mr Chamois cream".

Oh and those saddle sores strangely enough didn't need treatment during the TdF.

 

[thehog]

Check the Geert leinders thread and then come back to us saying you think an expert coach he was hired for "saddle sores". i'll give you a little help: his expertise is human fysiology, not mundane medic like treatment of sores, nor is he an expert on heat performance. And no that's not what I make up, it's what he studied for, got promoted for, wrote books about and certainly markets himself for. He does not market himself as "Mr Chamois cream".

Oh and those saddle sores strangely enough didn't need treatment during the TdF.

Apparently they’ve been cured of saddle sores for life before the Tour! He’s that good!

 

[Franklin]

Apparently they’ve been cured of saddle sores for life before the Tour! He’s that good!

Geert "Chamois Cream" Leinders.

I'm coining this one for posterity

 

[noddy69]

"the normal one"

What? Insanity is the definition with regard to repeating an action while expecting a different out come. The fame/inadequacy is what stokes the internal fire, it is temporarily perfect at doing its job, but next week it requires more to get the effect, which will never replicate the original buzz.You think the "experts" have the definitive definition!! Alcohol is a pain killer. The reason the individual chooses this method of killing the pain is because it is instant, though it never works next day as the over hang sets in and shadows you until you take the next cure for all your problems!!



If you understood what I was talking about you would not have dragged the rest of the bolded sentence before "insane" into your argument. It is universally held that to know and understand properly you must first experience. This has proven itself to me time and again!!

Being a recovering alcoholic I do have some insight into why alcoholics drink. The insanity is due to the addiction you reason with yourself that you must drink, you reason why you are drinking, you use excuses of pain stress, feelings of inadequacy but the real reason you are drinking is because you are an alcoholic. It increases any adverse emotion you feel, its a depressent, so when you here an alcoholic talk about depression, the only real way to see is it the alcohol or real depression is for him/her to stop drinking first...I have first hand knowledge and have and continue to hear excuses about why people drink. It is insane but feelings of inadequacy dont make you an alcoholic, they dont make you drink, the addiction does and the sooner people including those still drinking understand that the better.......now back to topic.

 

[Benotti69]

You saying the winners before Lemond were clean? Ever hear of Jacques Anquetil, Ocana, Fignon? and loads more. They were the more tech ones. Prior to Anq they were on the same stuff they gave race horses.
The only trouble I have with Kimmage was the mock naievety when he arrived in France. He must have known. When I was a schoolboy rider down at the old Crystal Palace track, early sixties, we all knew the continental pros were on the stuff. (and probably the amateurs aswell). Sorry I've gone a bit off topic. Sky? I'll stick with innocent until proven guilty, one of the saving graces of living in a civilised country.

Kimmage grew up in Ireland, where cycling was the minority of minority sports.

He was getting a trade while trying to be a cyclist. When Kimmage was training, Ireland was one of the poorest countries in Europe. Where would anyone have money to pay for dope to win a trophy. No financial prizes were on offer. He no doubt will have heard of doping prior to going to France, but was most definitely naive.

Innocent until proven guilty maybe the modus operandi of a civilised country but cycling has proved time and time again that it is most definitely not civilised.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Darryl, alcoholics take chances like that every day, who do you think all the failed breath testers are, his choice didn't make him drink. His drinking and choices were part of the same reckless lifestyle that is led by people who have unresolved issues in, usually, childhood. So nothing could repair that damage done in youth, not even being the champion, because he was unworthy. I'm talking about everybody who has ever been scarred like that in history, some manage while other more sensitive souls surrender to the depts that the depravity led them to. So an individual with these experiences who overcomes the situation, apparently, then goes to the pinnacle of his chosen field, will suffer the consequences of that success and fame. This is almost always the case because the draw of fame and feeling of inadequacy are mutually guaranteed to drive you insane, which is one definition of alcoholism. This is all very sad but pretty much the pattern of winners anyway. It is not a reflection on them as much as it is on our need to see these chariot racers fighting to the death from the comfort of our arm chairs!!

I realy dont want to get into a debate about this D. What I know came direct from his own family and it wasnt until he,d turned pro that the guy "gave in" to presures from the team he was in. Before he turned pro he was a fabulous rider. Many other facters , clearly ,pay there part. In this case , losing the ability to feel good about his cycling, losing the drive to do it and losing his career before age dictated took away from him something he,d dreamed of from childhood and worked very hard to achieve.
To my mind those who encourage/ presure a riders to use PEDS have blood on there hands.

 

[RichWalk]

Brad has Royal approval now, hope the Queens advisors are up to speed!

I assume that's 'the' Darryl Webster? I rode a 10 TT against you years ago, no need for concern, you beat me by about 4 minutes! (Alcester bypass A435)

 

[The Cobra]

Explain this. How does a "clean" ???? Wiggins finish only 37 seconds behind an undoubtedly charged up Lance Armstrong in the final general classification of the 2009 Tour De France. With "Mr. Poison" Frank Schleck a further 3 second's behind Wiggins.

Armstrong is an old man who hadn't raced for 3 years and Wiggins is the biggest talent of his generation.

 

[Benotti69]

Armstrong is an old man who hadn't raced for 3 years and Wiggins is the biggest talent of his generation.

Wiggins biggest talent?????? at 29 in 2009.

Contador was 26, which i would count as the same generation!

 

[Cerberus]

Wiggins biggest talent?????? at 29 in 2009.

Contador was 26, which i would count as the same generation!

ah, but Contador is a dirty Spanish doper.

 

[Snafu352]

.

Yawn.

So rant rant rant and no verifible facts.
Yes Brailsford did apparently say that they would not hire anybody associated with doping and that clearly changed; it seems you are upset because you didn't get a personal memo detailing why!
(As a matter of interest have you seen what was in the tome as you describe it, i'd be a little careful getting so worked up over a document i hadn't seen...)

I get the whole impassioned outrage thing you are going for, very honourable, then you go and spoil it with the silly bit about Wiggins, over playing your cards there old son.

 

[Knutsen]

Oh and those saddle sores strangely enough didn't need treatment during the TdF.

Guess they did'nt need doping during the Tour either.

 

[Snafu352]

Explain this. How does a "clean" ???? Wiggins finish only 37 seconds behind an undoubtedly charged up Lance Armstrong in the final general classification of the 2009 Tour De France. With "Mr. Poison" Frank Schleck a further 3 second's behind Wiggins.

Armstrong = Returning from 3 years out of competition
Wiggins = Giving it his all
Schleck = Never a contender even in his own head

Pretty simple really.
But probably not sufficiently cynical and distinctly lacking in the tin foil department for the regulars here.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Brad has Royal approval now, hope the Queens advisors are up to speed!

He has Royal approval because what he has achieved is something quite remarkable. There is no slur on Wiggins. He is innocent until proven outerwise. PROVEN. That's the key word here.

I had my suspicions about Team Sky. They weren't advertising the 'clean' angle enough for lots of people who read the Clinic pages. But until someone produces the numbers (the W/kg) that point to doping, I'm just going to have to take it that they won by fair means.

Can the TdF be won clean? Actually, I now believe it can, and has been for the last 2 years.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He is innocent until proven outerwise. PROVEN. That's the key word here.

Yet another post demanding proof. What qualifies as proof Team Sky is doping? Be specific.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Yet another post demanding proof. What qualifies as proof Team Sky is doping? Be specific.

Proof. You know, proof proofy proof type proof. The stuff they use in courts as evidence. Something like that, yeah. Otherwise, it's just people talking out their hoop.

 

[Benotti69]

Proof. You know, proof proofy proof type proof. The stuff they use in courts as evidence. Something like that, yeah. Otherwise, it's just people talking out their hoop.

Courts use lots of methods for deciding what is proof.

Contador was 'convicted' on a tiny amount of evidence.

Working with a doping doctor could easily be considered evidence of doping by a court in a similar vein working with a mafia family could be considered as working for the mafia.