Koechli & Helvetia/La Suisse-the clean team

[ultimobici]

As for Bauer, my opinion is that, overall taking into account his entire career, he was OK but not great. I say that having regard to my memory of his palmares, and the circumstances in which they arose. I think there are very few riders who are truly "great", so let's not misunderstand one another on definitional issues. So, for me, Bauer would have been closer to my definition of "great" if he had hit the following:

- He had won gold, not silver, in the '84 Olympics.
- He had won gold, not bronze, at the Barca Worlds.
- He had finished better than 4th in the '88 Tour, which was a comparatively weak field (he was beaten by Delgado, Rooks and Parra).
- He had won the '88 worlds (I know, I know, crashes are bad luck, but the fact remains he didn't win).
- He hadn't lost P-R by a millimetre or whatever it was.
- He hadn't relinquished yellow in '90 to Ronan Pensec of all people.
- He hadn't embarrassed himself with that chopper bike at P-R (I forget which edition, but he was out of contract that spring).

By way of comparison, riders who spring to mind as being truly "great" from Bauer's era include Hinault, Lemond, Kelly.

God you're hard to please.

I think all will agree that there are great riders and there are riders who become one of The Greats. Coppi, Merckx, Hinault & Anquetil are in the latter category without question. Other riders are or aren't in the same league depending on one's opinion. Indurain, Lemond, Kelly, Fignon & Armstrong would fit this mould. But there are many, many riders across the eras who were great riders. Mottet, Bauer, Tafi, Millar, Vanderaerden etc all were great riders despite not crushing all before them.

Bauer did win GP Zurich in 89, as well as spending a fortnight in yellow in his career. His loss to Pensec in 1990 was inevitable when you consider Pensec was more of a climber than Bauer was, with two podium finishes in the Daupine in 86 & 87. It didn't help that Bauer's 7-11 team was not designed to help him win the Tour, but was centred around Hampsten who was more likely to win.

To say that the 88 Tour had a weak field is not accurate at all. Delgado had already got on the podium in the Tour the previous year, as well as finishing 7th in the Giro. Rooks & Theunisse were like a Dutch tag team and Parra finished 7th in his first Tour in 85 taking the White Jersey to boot. Hampsten the Giro winner was there, as was Herrera, who had won the Polka-dot jersey in 85 & 87. Just because Lemond wasn't there & Fignon didn't finish one cannot say it was a weak field. If you do then almost every one of Armstrong's wins was against a weak field as Jan had eaten all the pies, Beloki had lost in his head. The only Tour I can think of in recent times with a weakened field is 2006, and that was due to Operation Puerto.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Cheers Bag-O, edit made Eddy P was clearly no donkey.

Now, if I could only get you to edit your assessment that Bauer just "Okay". I'd contend that he was very good at many aspects of the game, but not a clear stand-out in any. Had he been better in one aspect, at the expense of another I think he might have had more wins rather than many solid results across the board.

 

[laziali]

Now, if I could only get you to edit your assessment that Bauer just "Okay". I'd contend that he was very good at many aspects of the game, but not a clear stand-out in any. Had he been better in one aspect, at the expense of another I think he might have had more wins rather than many solid results across the board.

Would have been interesting if Bauer had concentrated only on the classics and stages a la musseuw tafi jaja (one suspcious tour high finish apart) etc but Bauer tried it all just as Phil Anderson did.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Would have been interesting if Bauer had concentrated only on the classics and stages a la musseuw tafi jaja (one suspcious tour high finish apart) etc but Bauer tried it all just as Phil Anderson did.

I'll buy that assesment, lazi. Anderson is certainly a fair comparison to Bauer, a great rider without necessarily being 'A Great'.

You seem to be cycling-crazy, how about a more civil discourse base upon our love of cycling (and perhaps each other...)?

Truce, Sweetie?

 

[Le breton]

........... Demol beat Thomas Wegmuller in 88...........QUOTE]

Well, Wegmuller did it to himself really by doing all the work. Then a plastic bag got into his derailleur a few km from the finish.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

........... Demol beat Thomas Wegmuller in 88...........QUOTE]

Well, Wegmuller did it to himself really by doing all the work. Then a plastic bag got into his derailleur a few km from the finish.

Apart from the plastic baggy, it was classic Wegmuller.

 

[laziali]

I'll buy that assesment, lazi. Anderson is certainly a fair comparison to Bauer, a great rider without necessarily being 'A Great'.

You seem to be cycling-crazy, how about a more civil discourse base upon our love of cycling (and perhaps each other...)?

Truce, Sweetie?

Fair enough - sometimes I get too cranky for my own good

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Fair enough - sometimes I get too cranky for my own good

Don't we all...

SMOOCH! Hell, buddy - we should work for the UN after that debacle!

Tommy Veg certainly get hooped by that bag! I remember watching that and yelling "NO!" at the TV as he was bending over and trying to pull it out of the derailleur, and looking despondent and confused.

What a drag...

BTW, anyone have video of that? Pretty cool moment in cycling, obviously not for Wegmuller, but nonetheless...

 

[laziali]

I forgot about that. Wegmuller was an impressive rider. Remember seeing it on tape, but it's long gone now. Fondriest's worlds was on YouTube tho when I wanted a bit of nostalgia about three months ago.

 

[Neworld]

I forgot about that. Wegmuller was an impressive rider. Remember seeing it on tape, but it's long gone now. Fondriest's worlds was on YouTube tho when I wanted a bit of nostalgia about three months ago.

Hey, just me again. I was talking to a friend the other day, another Bauer fan, and he said that Bauer was in the thick of trying to win another Worlds (not sure of the year) when he flatted 4 Kms from the finish. Does anyone know the year he was talking about? 1989?

NW

 

[ultimobici]

Hey, just me again. I was talking to a friend the other day, another Bauer fan, and he said that Bauer was in the thick of trying to win another Worlds (not sure of the year) when he flatted 4 Kms from the finish. Does anyone know the year he was talking about? 1989?

NW

Prezzie for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38&p=8175A391BDD99F93&playnext=1&index=16
1989 - Fignon Lemond Kelly Konyshev Rooks Claveyrolat and Bauer

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Prezzie for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38&p=8175A391BDD99F93&playnext=1&index=16
1989 - Fignon Lemond Kelly Konyshev Rooks Claveyrolat and Bauer

Thanks for vid! Holy shizz! I hadn't seen that since it happened.

What a crying f*cking shame! I really like seeing the Fignon attack again, and Lemond's response...

The words of Leggit et al are sort of telling, referenced to the 'new era' particularly. "Look at how easy they can make this steep climb look!".

Look at those guys, they are struggling! They are doing everything they can to stomp it out, and fighting for every metre! It actually looks like hard work...

That's what drove me out of watching cycling a decade ago. The EPOs, perhaps one in particular, made it all look too easy. Those climbs are not easy, and the retrogade view of it makes it all the more obvious.

What a shame! Bring back the head-butting contests of who's tougher! Man, I used to love this sport with a passion!

Now, I'm just sorta lukewarm...

 

[ultimobici]

Well then you'll love this lot.

30-21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLhp5c79xuY&feature=related
20-11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPgHu4ttTI&feature=related
10-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBdypZ3ImHs

Enjoy!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Well then you'll love this lot.

30-21 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLhp5c79xuY&feature=related
20-11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPgHu4ttTI&feature=related
10-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBdypZ3ImHs

Enjoy!

UNFREAKINREAL!

I only watched the first vid, but Holy Crap, buddy! What a good match of the vids to music of the time!

I had goosebumps, was laughing, anxiety, and tears - almost all at the same time. Hey, that sounds like bike racing...

Thanks, ultimo! REALLY appreciate it! I also hope a whole bunch more people check them out!

 

[ultimobici]

Thanks for vid! Holy shizz! I hadn't seen that since it happened.

What a crying f*cking shame! I really like seeing the Fignon attack again, and Lemond's response...

The words of Leggit et al are sort of telling, referenced to the 'new era' particularly. "Look at how easy they can make this steep climb look!".

Look at those guys, they are struggling! They are doing everything they can to stomp it out, and fighting for every metre! It actually looks like hard work...

That's what drove me out of watching cycling a decade ago. The EPOs, perhaps one in particular, made it all look too easy. Those climbs are not easy, and the retrogade view of it makes it all the more obvious.

What a shame! Bring back the head-butting contests of who's tougher! Man, I used to love this sport with a passion!

Now, I'm just sorta lukewarm...

It's a little early to pull the EPO card, IMO. I think it's more a case of marvelling at the difference in a pro climbing compared to mere mortals!

 

[Neworld]

Prezzie for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJSgzHTRg38&p=8175A391BDD99F93&playnext=1&index=16
1989 - Fignon Lemond Kelly Konyshev Rooks Claveyrolat and Bauer

Ulti,

you're the bomb, thanks. Great vid.

Nice to see Bauer duking it out with the big guns listed above. Bummer about the flat. Wonder how deflating that would have felt?

NW

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It's a little early to pull the EPO card, IMO. I think it's more a case of marvelling at the difference in a pro climbing compared to mere mortals!

No, no... I may have been mistaken.

I wasn't talking about Fignon and the guys in regards to EPO. I meant more of a comparrison watching the Fig video vs. the guys of today. The old dudes actually look like they have to work to beat on each other - not like the red-lined tempo contests of today. And you can be sure that it's not just 'cause the bikes are a bit lighter...

That's what I've been saying I miss in cycling. Guys taking chances, attacking, fighting back, and hitting them again. Beautiful!

The video links ultimo posted above are really cool, although it may be redundant - check them out! Wicked!

 

[laziali]

Speaking of lighter bikes I just saw a team issue motorola eddy merckx from around when Bauer was ending his career with them - Columbus slx tubing I think - with a weight of 2.5kg. That had to be a lot harden to get up the bosberg etc than today's cf. Geez, weight was such a non-issue back then that campag delta brakes had those glam, but entirely unnecessary face plates. Weren't much good at stopping either but they sure did look pretty.

Often wonder how contador would go on a team issue gitane from fignons day

 

[Neworld]

No, no... I may have been mistaken.

I wasn't talking about Fignon and the guys in regards to EPO. I meant more of a comparrison watching the Fig video vs. the guys of today. The old dudes actually look like they have to work to beat on each other - not like the red-lined tempo contests of today. And you can be sure that it's not just 'cause the bikes are a bit lighter...

That's how I took your post

That's what I've been saying I miss in cycling. Guys taking chances, attacking, fighting back, and hitting them again. Beautiful!

Like Vino, Chavanel and Hesjedal.

NW

 

[Neworld]

I found this oldish 'focus' on Bauer, FYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxko9w0-Dps

NW

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Alright; I just got back from a few weeks of much-needed vacation in the sun and had some time to think about a couple of things that were brought up in this thread, more specfically the radio issue in terms of my attitude as a DS and how I had said that they were a benefit to bike racing.

I retract all of that.

I know that I had said that I liked how radios kept the DS in the game and brought the operatic drama on the road into the car, but I'm starting to think that that only was playing to my own ego and not to the better nature of racing.

With my retrograde love of cycling, I can see nothing but conflict in regards to the radio issue. They can only detract from the spontenaeity of racing, and add to the 'brouillard' of what cycling has become, much to my chagrin.

I've spouted off about how much I love the 'old days' of the tough-man contests and the beatings the men down the road would lay upon each other. Upon further reflection I realize that the radios can only detract from that scenario.

Sorry guys, you were right. Lay your beatings upon me...

 

[ultimobici]

Alright; I just got back from a few weeks of much-needed vacation in the sun and had some time to think about a couple of things that were brought up in this thread, more specfically the radio issue in terms of my attitude as a DS and how I had said that they were a benefit to bike racing.

I retract all of that.

I know that I had said that I liked how radios kept the DS in the game and brought the operatic drama on the road into the car, but I'm starting to think that that only was playing to my own ego and not to the better nature of racing.

With my retrograde love of cycling, I can see nothing but conflict in regards to the radio issue. They can only detract from the spontaneity of racing, and add to the 'brouillard' of what cycling has become, much to my chagrin.

I've spouted off about how much I love the 'old days' of the tough-man contests and the beatings the men down the road would lay upon each other. Upon further reflection I realize that the radios can only detract from that scenario.

Sorry guys, you were right. Lay your beatings upon me...

See we knew that given enough time you'd come round!

So, what about those clipless pedals?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Oh Ultimo...

Perhaps this is the final gasp and acceptance that I'm actually old. What a shame! I fought this battle for most of a decade, and now I finally feel like I'm wrong, or more accurately realize that I am.

That's a drag.

Nonetheless, I still like adhering to the ideal of running the dopers out. That would be a nice consolation prize! Let's run these fu*kers out and get the sport back.

Who would want their kid to get into this sh*t show?

Bring on the bonfire!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Oh yeah, forgot the pedals...

Double Binda's with nylon, pulled to the max. No one with any jam in a sprint would count on those pussy clipless pedals...

 

[NashbarShorts]

Sorry guys, you were right. Lay your beatings upon me...

2-3 radio'd riders per team, max. Keeps the spontaneity but also prevents the DS's from falling asleep at the wheel and hitting innocent bystanders