Koechli & Helvetia/La Suisse-the clean team

[ultimobici]

Oh yeah, forgot the pedals...

Double Binda's with nylon, pulled to the max. No one with any jam in a sprint would count on those pussy clipless pedals...

I remember riders pulling out until red cleats came out.

I'm all for technology in the sport. As a 16 year old I used to peer through the window of Dentons in Oxford at the Ti Raleigh replica, 531 with Nuovo Record. Years later I finally built up a Colnago with Super Record so had the object of those desires two decades earlier. Aesthetically it was perfect but functionally it was far from it! Dual pivots & integrated shifters & brakes make a huge difference!

But if you look at the sport overall, the rider has always been the one who made the tactical choices on the road up until radios were introduced. Radios skewed that part of races.

Bikes have been progressively been improved, but a rider from any era from the 1940's onwards would recognise the bikes we have now despite the extra gears, different materials & lack of toeclips.

The way a race is run is very similar too. The caravan, team cars and team tactics are all long standing features of the sport.

Radios are in my opinion an unnatural development as they afford a tactically less astute rider a way of artificially enhancing his ability with a DS's help. Radio Doping if you like!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm not sure about 'radio doping', but I'd go for 'intelligence doping'... That's one of the things that made me change my mind. The ability of a smarter racer being able to play the race to his favour. That should remain a key aspect to bike racing.

Don't worry about the DSs falling asleep - we've all got the live TV feed on the screen. And a whole universe of gossip to go over...

 

[pmcg76]

This thread is like..so last month but I wanted to update it anyway. I opened this thread seeking information on the Helvetia team and their director Paul Koechli. Koechli was a proponent of clean cycling and Helvetia were regarded as a clean team so I was trying to gather info on these claims. The thread then descended into a Steve Bauer doped/didnt dope mess and then headed of in several directions.

Even though I posed the opening question, lo and behold, what should I just come across in my own cycling library. From David Walsh's 1993 book, Inside the Tour de France, Chapter 10: The doctors tale.

Jean-Paul Van Poppel,(former 80s sprint star & director of Cervelo Test team, Vacansoleil next year) who was the subject of a seperate chapter in the book talking about doping.

"People see injections as doping. A man riding the Tour needs more vitamins than the normal person. In my mind what is not banned is not doping. But there are riders who ride the Tour de France without vitamins and all that stuff. Its possible".

"I know Paul Koechli's team(Helvetia), they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesnt like injections, just Supradine. No needles never. Its possible for a strong rider like Steve Bauer who rode for Koechli's team."

"Whatever happened to Koechli's ideas"

As if to answer the question, Walsh talks to the man himself, Paul Koechli who says his ideas were a success.

"I founded a company in Switzerland which controlled the team and I ran that team from 1988 to 92 without one needle. The process was more important to me that the results and I could do it because it was my team and I owned the company. I had the freedom to do it. We had less money but we had very good results. We had the yellow jersey in the Tour for 10 days, Steve was fourth in the 88 Tour and the many riders in my team became convinced it was possible to do this job without doing what so many had told them they should do".

Koechli's success with the La Vie Claire team in the 80s is also mentioned, the team won 2 Tours with Hinault & LeMond. The script continues:

Although he is reluctant to be specific, Koechli was not impressed by everything at La Vie Claire.

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I never saw it but I know it happened. I changed the team because of this reason. The difficulty was at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built"

Central to Koechlis philosophy is the belief that cyclists take drugs because of a psychological dependence. Physically they dont need them, a view confirmed by the performance of Greg LeMond.

"I know that Greg, when he was in my team, did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour. So you can win the Tour without drugs. This is important because so many riders are dependant. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"

On Bauer & LeMond

"They had a different attitude, they had their own knowledge about training and physiology and that kept them away from what should not be done. They also had strong personalities and so they could resist. But if you have grown up in a bad environment, it is vey difficult to resist."

Bernard Tapie who funded the La Vie Claire said Bauer & LeMond were the only two riders he was sure didnt use drugs.



All very interesting stuff I think, a clean team and possible to win the Tour cleanly, well in the 80s at any rate. Please note this book was from 1993 when doping was not talked about at all in comparison to today and most directors woulndnt even entertain the subject. Also, there is no Lance v LeMond agenda here becaue well Lance wasnt anybody at that stage and LeMond was still racing, Koechli is simply telling it like he saw it. Believe what you want.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Kudos to Koechli! And to you for dragging this back into the light of day!

Lovely!

 

[ultimobici]

Kudos to Koechli! And to you for dragging this back into the light of day!

Lovely!

Very interesting indeed.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

You have to admit that racing looked a lot different 'back in the day'. How tragic is that? Or obvious of some sort of strange change in the peloton...

 

[ultimobici]

You have to admit that racing looked a lot different 'back in the day'. How tragic is that? Or obvious of some sort of strange change in the peloton...

With all the shenanigans of the last week or two I have found myself retreating into Youtube to watch 80's racing to remind myself what bike racing looks like without silly levels of "stuff"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbPKMclFByY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSh340PoHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2VgKY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsjWOiBtQTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV_3zOlyU30

 

[hrotha]

With all the shenanigans of the last week or two I have found myself retreating into Youtube to watch 80's racing to remind myself what bike racing looks like without silly levels of "stuff"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbPKMclFByY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSh340PoHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2VgKY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsjWOiBtQTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV_3zOlyU30

How much of that "cycling was different back then" feeling is due to the silly gears they used?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

How much of that "cycling was different back then" feeling is due to the silly gears they used?

You're right. Add a kilo, or so, to a bike; some heavier clothing and longer hair (potentially off-set by not having to wear helmets), and the fact that these cavemen had no idea how to train or race...

Hell, I don't know how they made it more than a hundred metres without falling over...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

With all the shenanigans of the last week or two I have found myself retreating into Youtube to watch 80's racing to remind myself what bike racing looks like without silly levels of "stuff"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbPKMclFByY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOSh340PoHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2VgKY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsjWOiBtQTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV_3zOlyU30

Just quoting your post, Ultimo, to keep these vids in circulation...

 

[pmcg76]

I thinks its funny how the "everyone doped, period" brigade have steered clear of this thread. Where are the big denouncements we always hear. Is Koechli a liar or indeed why would he even talk about doping when there was absolutely no need.

 

[ultimobici]

I thinks its funny how the "everyone doped, period" brigade have steered clear of this thread. Where are the big denouncements we always hear. Is Koechli a liar or indeed why would he even talk about doping when there was absolutely no need.

Which makes it all the sadder that Koechli and his ilk were effectively driven out of the sport in favour of the Conconi/Ferrari/Cecchini brigade.

What hope could cycling have had under those circumstances and, more importantly, why is the sport insistent on making the same glaringly obvious mistakes?

The rules are crystal clear, the penalties are too, yet riders, teams & sponsors are happy to blithely ignore them. When they are caught they soon start bleating about rules, procedures & fairness though!

 

[pmcg76]

Which makes it all the sadder that Koechli and his ilk were effectively driven out of the sport in favour of the Conconi/Ferrari/Cecchini brigade.

What hope could cycling have had under those circumstances and, more importantly, why is the sport insistent on making the same glaringly obvious mistakes?

The rules are crystal clear, the penalties are too, yet riders, teams & sponsors are happy to blithely ignore them. When they are caught they soon start bleating about rules, procedures & fairness though!

Koechli didnt see the need for any teams to have doctors, he was very against the idea when it was becoming the fashion. The only role he envisaged for a doctor was if a rider was injured or sick. I will try and get a more detailed description of his opposition to doctors.

 

[pmcg76]

This thread is like..so last month but I wanted to update it anyway. I opened this thread seeking information on the Helvetia team and their director Paul Koechli. Koechli was a proponent of clean cycling and Helvetia were regarded as a clean team so I was trying to gather info on these claims. The thread then descended into a Steve Bauer doped/didnt dope mess and then headed of in several directions.

Even though I posed the opening question, lo and behold, what should I just come across in my own cycling library. From David Walsh's 1993 book, Inside the Tour de France, Chapter 10: The doctors tale.

Jean-Paul Van Poppel,(former 80s sprint star & director of Cervelo Test team, Vacansoleil next year) who was the subject of a seperate chapter in the book talking about doping.

"People see injections as doping. A man riding the Tour needs more vitamins than the normal person. In my mind what is not banned is not doping. But there are riders who ride the Tour de France without vitamins and all that stuff. Its possible".

"I know Paul Koechli's team(Helvetia), they never rode with any vitamins or anything else. He was against all of this. He doesnt like injections, just Supradine. No needles never. Its possible for a strong rider like Steve Bauer who rode for Koechli's team."

"Whatever happened to Koechli's ideas"

As if to answer the question, Walsh talks to the man himself, Paul Koechli who says his ideas were a success.

"I founded a company in Switzerland which controlled the team and I ran that team from 1988 to 92 without one needle. The process was more important to me that the results and I could do it because it was my team and I owned the company. I had the freedom to do it. We had less money but we had very good results. We had the yellow jersey in the Tour for 10 days, Steve was fourth in the 88 Tour and the many riders in my team became convinced it was possible to do this job without doing what so many had told them they should do".

Koechli's success with the La Vie Claire team in the 80s is also mentioned, the team won 2 Tours with Hinault & LeMond. The script continues:

Although he is reluctant to be specific, Koechli was not impressed by everything at La Vie Claire.

"About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I never saw it but I know it happened. I changed the team because of this reason. The difficulty was at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built"

Central to Koechlis philosophy is the belief that cyclists take drugs because of a psychological dependence. Physically they dont need them, a view confirmed by the performance of Greg LeMond.

"I know that Greg, when he was in my team, did not use any stuff. I say that 200% certain and he won the Tour. So you can win the Tour without drugs. This is important because so many riders are dependant. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them"

On Bauer & LeMond

"They had a different attitude, they had their own knowledge about training and physiology and that kept them away from what should not be done. They also had strong personalities and so they could resist. But if you have grown up in a bad environment, it is vey difficult to resist."

Bernard Tapie who funded the La Vie Claire said Bauer & LeMond were the only two riders he was sure didnt use drugs.



All very interesting stuff I think, a clean team and possible to win the Tour cleanly, well in the 80s at any rate. Please note this book was from 1993 when doping was not talked about at all in comparison to today and most directors woulndnt even entertain the subject. Also, there is no Lance v LeMond agenda here becaue well Lance wasnt anybody at that stage and LeMond was still racing, Koechli is simply telling it like he saw it. Believe what you want.

Bringing back this thread as I feel it is relevant to other current threads and spares me from repeating myself.

Just wanted to add this on Giles Delion who rode for Helvetia and was considered as 'Mr Clean' during his career. Translation is bad but you get the gist.

Editor Paul Koechler, doping has never been the agenda. "(L'Equipe 07/01/1999)
* "The doping in cycling (...), it since I'm talking about fourteen! It is not today. Me, I was spared. Within the Team Helvetia, I swam in an oasis of serenity, quiet, away from it all. It was not our concern. We do not talk about doping in the training, we were not aware of what was happening. The ancients did not speak either. But it is clear that 93 everyone knew that a new product had landed in the bunch, EPO. (...) We will never know if the guys who have never taken are champions, but the riders that have been presented as such were they really? Some have usurped careers and reputations, rankings, too. " (La France Cycliste No. 2129, 07/12/2001)
* "I understand (...) runners who came in [EPO] as a last resort. They followed the movement and like the others. They are victims of doping. Can not argue with those who came here when more than 70% of the peloton was already using. They sought to save their skin. But I blame those who seek, chase and get everyone before new products. " (La France Cycliste No. 2129, 07/12/2001)

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/portraits/delion.htm

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thanks, pcmg;

It's sad that that era had to end with EPO. And even more sad that riders are trying to deny it. Sort of like a 'revisionist history' for cycling. You'd have to be blind to ignore the change in the sport...

 

[Tank Engine]

Bauer, Gianetti and Helvetia

Thanks, pcmg;

It's sad that that era had to end with EPO. And even more sad that riders are trying to deny it. Sort of like a 'revisionist history' for cycling. You'd have to be blind to ignore the change in the sport...

I remember having read and enjoyed this thread as a lurker some time ago and after one of my recent posts felt compelled to return to it.
I recently reminisced about the '89 Tour of Britain, when Robert Millar had attacked with A N Other (who won the stage) on the stage to Cardiff. I tried to think of who the winner of the stage was and the name Gianetti came into my head. Then someone in a red and white shirt sprinting passed Millar flashed into my mind: Helvetia it said. After the passage of over 20 years and an "era" of cycling, there is a clear discord between these names. A check on the internet confirmed that my memory wasn't playing tricks.

The late 80s was the period when I fell in love with cycling. Bauer was one of the "romantic" heroes, a non-climber who battled it out in the Tour with the mountain goats, as well as in one day classics which seemed to be more his element..

I had never really followed Gianetti as a rider, so I looked his palmares up on

http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=312&idtitle=1

His peak seemed to be in 1995-1996 with Polti (including the 1995 World Cup wins in LBL and the Amstel Gold Race), before the infamous "incident" at the 1998 Tour de Romandie. It's interesting reading the list of those who rode for Helvetia and thinking about their very different fates. On one hand, Bauer and Delion and on the other a number of riders who went to Festina (including Dufaux and Gianetti).

When you look at the DSs today, it really does make you shake your head. From what I see cycling is cleaner (rather than clean), but I think that this is due to the fact that the passports show when there are any major deviations in the parameters of the body's functioning from the norm rather than any change in mentality, so micro rather than macro-doping is probably the norm. At least (judging by Moncoutie's, or your favourite non-doping rider's, results) it means that you can be clean and competitive.

 

[L'arriviste]

Niki Rüttimann, Guido Winterberg and Urs Zimmermann have been 100% clean during their entire career.

Excellent thread. However, Helvetia did in fact have one single positive test in its history and this was returned by Guido Winterberg.

Winterberg, who rode for Koechli throughout the whole life of the team, tested positive for an unnamed banned substance (possibly related to a recent bout of bronchitis) at the 1992 Swiss National Championships and, after having found himself dropped from Helvetia's Tour de France line-up, appears to have quit the sport at the end of that season.

 

[pmcg76]

I remember having read and enjoyed this thread as a lurker some time ago and after one of my recent posts felt compelled to return to it.
I recently reminisced about the '89 Tour of Britain, when Robert Millar had attacked with A N Other (who won the stage) on the stage to Cardiff. I tried to think of who the winner of the stage was and the name Gianetti came into my head. Then someone in a red and white shirt sprinting passed Millar flashed into my mind: Helvetia it said. After the passage of over 20 years and an "era" of cycling, there is a clear discord between these names. A check on the internet confirmed that my memory wasn't playing tricks.

The late 80s was the period when I fell in love with cycling. Bauer was one of the "romantic" heroes, a non-climber who battled it out in the Tour with the mountain goats, as well as in one day classics which seemed to be more his element..

I had never really followed Gianetti as a rider, so I looked his palmares up on

http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=312&idtitle=1

His peak seemed to be in 1995-1996 with Polti (including the 1995 World Cup wins in LBL and the Amstel Gold Race), before the infamous "incident" at the 1998 Tour de Romandie. It's interesting reading the list of those who rode for Helvetia and thinking about their very different fates. On one hand, Bauer and Delion and on the other a number of riders who went to Festina (including Dufaux and Gianetti).

When you look at the DSs today, it really does make you shake your head. From what I see cycling is cleaner (rather than clean), but I think that this is due to the fact that the passports show when there are any major deviations in the parameters of the body's functioning from the norm rather than any change in mentality, so micro rather than macro-doping is probably the norm. At least (judging by Moncoutie's, or your favourite non-doping rider's, results) it means that you can be clean and competitive.

Kinda surprised to see this thread re-appear but glad to see people enjoyed reading it. I recently read Slaying the badger in which Koechli featured heavily but didnt discover anything new.

Just want to add a few notes having read back through some of the thread. Helvetia and Koechli left the sport end of 1992 before EPO took over completely.

Quite a few of the Helvetia guys did go on to have dodgey careers afterward, I know there is an interview with Laurent Dufaux after he joined ONCE in which he is critical of Koechli whilst glowing in his praise of Manolo Siaz and ONCE, he speaks of how much more professional ONCE were, which can be interpeted in different ways I guess.

Pascal Richard is another former Helvetia rider who improved dramatically when he moved to Ariostea. Looking at all the riders who rode for Helvetia, it is hard to imagine they all rode clean but it does seem there was no doping culture there and anyone who was doping would have been doing it by themselves in secret.

Bauer, Ruttiman, Winterberg, Demierre, LeClercq all stayed with Koechli for most of their career which is a good sign if he ran a clean team. Le Clercq was a very good rider for the Ardennes classics and spent one year in Italy after Helvetia, he then retired at the young age of 30 I think. Again, perhaps it is too much to read something of that.

Another overlooked stat is that Helvetia only ever participated in one GT per year, Le Tour. I dont know if there was any particular reason for that(budget restraints?) but perhaps it was to reduce the strain on the riders.

I know thre are plenty of posters with agendas who will dismiss the Helvetia story as folly but I think there is enough evidence that Koechli did try to do it correctly and had success(albeit not on a grand level).

 

[Race Radio]

I like the story Shelly Verses tells about when she worked for Paul. One she was having bad....um, "female issues" she bought some pills to deal with the cramps and had a couple of them sitting on the dinner table.

Paul saw them and freaked out. Picked up the pills, tossed them across the room, and accused her of trying to dope his riders. Took her a while to calm him down and explain.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Nice bump, Tank Engine.

 

[Tank Engine]

Nice bump, Tank Engine.

Cheers. Hopefully, the thread will get a few more reads, as the clinic issues are treated objectively and the off topic stuff is very humorous.

I'm glad Bauer is still involved in cycling. For the main part, the fates of the former Helvetia cyclists unfortunately seem to reflect the evolution of cycling over the last 20 years. Those who apparently shared the ideals of Koechli disappeared from the pro scene. Bauer was 33 when EPO really came onto to the scene, so you might expect him to have peaked, but his decline seems rather rapid when others who had good records at Paris-Roubaix stayed very competitive into their late 30s (like Museeuw, an admitted doper). Gilles Delion is a completely different story (retired at 28).

Other team members, like Aldag and Gianetti, embraced the "professional" approach of teams like Telekom and Polti, sometimes just to make a living. Having been part of the system, they progressed to becoming Directeurs (as did many others from the same generation: Holm, Riis, de Galdeano, Bruyneel). Together with the clear benefits of doping, UCI's protection of Armstrong after the 1999 Tour positive and his and omerta's bossing of the peloton led to the domination of
"professionalism". This has been mitigated by the ability of passports/testing to control, but not eliminate doping, creating the present situation.

Assuming that the no doping stance of Vaughters (and of the high profile DSs he is the nearest thing to an outsider) is real (and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this), I can understand his gently, gently approach. The system and mentality may be so ingrained that anything too radical would be opposed by forces too great or would bring down the whole system (something he definitely doesn't want). The route of evolutionary change is not ideal, the playing field is not level, but it seems that at least the slope is not so great that the likes of Delion and Bassons might nowadays find themselves in the peloton.

 

[mtb Dad]

I'd love to hear what Koechli has to say about the UCI's feeble efforts to control doping. But I guess leaving the sport in 1992 says it all.

When is that trial of VerDRUGgen going to happen anyway?

 

[webvan]

Excellent thread with some real insight. You have to wonder what would have happened if a tough guy like Hinault had been in his prime when EPO arrived...the way he controlled the peloton could have helped. Lemond didn't have the same charisma and was losing it fast compared to guys like Fignon as early as 91 and it got worse in 92.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Has Hinault made any critical comments about EPO?

 

[webvan]

Has anyone ? It's a bit like the black plague.

Hinault did say that you could win a TDF by being on "clear water"...and some cortisone I guess, re his damaged knees.

Also why would he have rocked the boat in the 90s, didn't really matter to him, my point was that if EPO had arrived in 1981 would he have accepted to see inferior riders trounce him? Unlikely...